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Trump Part 19

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@DimitryZ

slavery was the core part of an economic system whose legacy is black families with average 1/10th wealth relative to whites. no marxism or fancy deconstruction necessary.
 
vuk said:
@DimitryZ

slavery was the core part of an economic system whose legacy is black families with average 1/10th wealth. no marxism or fancy deconstruction necessary.
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That fact does not lead to an inescapable conclusion that today's economy must be restructured into a socialist mold in order to address the historic inequality.
 
DimitryZ said:
That fact does not lead to a conclusion that today's economy must be restructured into a socialist mold in order to address the historic inequality.
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is 1950s america a socialist mold? that's what i actually suggested.
 
Tony L said:
For clarity I don’t have any objection with any of that. I believe firmly in progressive taxation. I’m against both nationalism and isolationism/protectionism, so I do have some sticking points, but I could certainly sign up to the paragraph above and have very regularly argued similar.

My issue, which I acknowledge I haven’t expressed well (I’m very tired, I might not even be on the right thread!), is that I am hugely skeptical of those who take what is a very real outpouring of anger and grief at very real issues as an opportunity to push entirely different agendas, especially if any smugness is involved. To my mind #BLM is a very pure, simple and real civil rights movement. It annoys me when I see folk trying to hitch their own personal bandwagons to it for their own personal agendas, especially if they get to the point of attempting to dismiss the anger as as something they understand better than the people on the actual receiving end. We see it here in the UK in that pretty much any protest about anything at all gets all the Socialist Workers Party activists or whatever etc out and all of a sudden their placards and banners are everywhere despite the protests having nothing all to do with any of them.

PS As far as I’m concerned things like #BLM, LGBT+ rights etc are areas where folk like you and I are far better off just to STFU, listen and offer support where we are able. We should never feel we understand enough to explain or lead as we just don’t have the life-experience or knowledge to do so.
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DimitryZ said:
I note that the Marxist deconstractivist dielectic and historical necessity are useful tools in political philosophy and economic history.

But I find that this often misapplied into every societal problem, so everything always gets reduced to economic inequality. This robs us of our personal agency and blames capitalism for every ill that faces every society. Complexity of historic racism is therefore presented as simply a historically necessary attribute of capitalism. This is a firmly held tenet of classic Marxism. As a 13 year old leaving the USSR I was already firmly indoctrinated into that view.

Today I work for a large corporation and I know that the simplistic Marxist tenet is wrong. Economic inequality and systemic racism are not always connected at the root and dont always have the same corrective prescriptions. The answer to reforming police behavior is not to abolish the police (radical left) or bust police unions (radical right) but a slow, painful process of national reconciliation, probably through the trurh and reconciliation Commission. An honest conversation about reparation should be part of it.

But those who hope that this national crisis of conscience should be a gateway to reforming economics into a more socialist mold will be dissapointed. If it is to occur, it will have to be done on its own merits, not through a dielectic sleight of hand.

Note, that as a properly educated Soviet student I do not use "Maxist" as a pejorative term. It is a perfectly valid theory of economics and historical development that should be taught and understood, among other competing views.
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Totally understand distaste at the idea of left wing vanguardist types trying to seize control of these movements, but I don't think it's happening here (well, they are trying, but...) As far as I can tell what might be interpreted as the desire to "reform economics into a more socialist mould" is native to the movement, or parts of it at least. Given that, it's hard not to interpret the two posts above as expressing the wish that the movement know its place, as it were (or remain "pure", as Tony puts it). "Yes, you've every right to demand this! But not that: that's commie talk!"
 
DimitryZ said:
Everybody wants to go to 1950s for different ideological reasons.
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we were talking about economics. i think that's pretty clear, but nice try to sneak something else in.


DimitryZ said:
I think we should go forward, not backwards.
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isn't that just the sort of empty, dictatorial slogan we both know from the communist era? if you're about to run into the jaws of a lion, it's best to retreat quickly.
 
Seanm said:
Given that, it's hard not to interpret the two posts above as expressing the wish that the movement know its place, as it were (or remain "pure", as Tony puts it). "Yes, you've every right to demand this! But not that: that's commie talk!"
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That really isn’t what I’m saying. I’m actually trying to say nothing and not do anything that ‘speaks’ for #BLM at all. I do not want to put my interpretation or biases onto the movement at all, just to listen, learn, and wholeheartedly support it. I am absolutely not in a position to speak for anyone, or to interpret/post-rationalise motives beyond what is so clearly stated. The difference between Vuk and I is I fully understand that.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I think to do horrid stuff, you have to dehumanise the people you do it to, which tends to be easier if you can first find a way to hate them, yes. In these cases, the hate isn't personalised, and is somewhat abstract, but it starts as hate.
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What do you think the Public Service does? or the Post Office? I worked in the Immigration department where most wanted quick promoton, or were content to aide in the filing section until retirement came. Horrid stuff? Yes, the man who was sacked for asking a New Caledonian if her family were "touched with tar".

Come on man, get réal.
 
Yank said:
Sounds like something that could go all Orwellian in the blink of an eye.
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I think American society is suffering from unresolved and unaddressed trauma.

Truth and Reconciliation Commissions have proven helpful in similar situations, post-apartheid South Africa.
 
Seanm said:
Totally understand distaste at the idea of left wing vanguardist types trying to seize control of these movements, but I don't think it's happening here (well, they are trying, but...) As far as I can tell what might be interpreted as the desire to "reform economics into a more socialist mould" is native to the movement, or parts of it at least. Given that, it's hard not to interpret the two posts above as expressing the wish that the movement know its place, as it were (or remain "pure", as Tony puts it). "Yes, you've every right to demand this! But not that: that's commie talk!"
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I would refrain from speaking for the movement.

I personally am wary of movements that attempt to recast society as a whole, and quickly. Things like CHOP in Seattle are very far from representing actual aspirations of large portions of America. Persisting to channel the movement as a socialist revolution will quickly become counterproductive to the original goals. In fact, they have already - and if this leads to REAL social unrest with widespread violence, it could easily become Trump's path to retaining the presidency.

Nobody actually wants to experience actual anarchy, much less to choose it.
 
I'm tending towards the view that a massive redistribution of wealth would help more than a Truth and Reconciliation Commission; I'm less sure whether any US administration would be willing to go down that road.
 
DimitryZ said:
I think American society is suffering from unresolved and unaddressed trauma.

Truth and Reconciliation Commissions have proven helpful in similar situations, post-apartheid South Africa.
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An awful lot of Americans seem to have difficulties with the concept of Truth.
 
Joe Hutch said:
I'm tending towards the view that a massive redistribution of wealth would help more than a Truth and Reconciliation Commission; I'm less sure whether any US administration would be willing to go down that road.
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Can you please do the massive redistribution thing in your country first. Let us know how it goes.
 
DimitryZ said:
Can you please do the massive redistribution thing in your country first. Let us know how it goes.
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We could certainly do better than we're currently managing, but a) we have a fully-funded National Health Service, free at the point of use, and b) I believe wealth disparity is slightly less blatant here than in the US. But happy to be corrected if I've got that wrong.
 
Joe Hutch said:
I'm tending towards the view that a massive redistribution of wealth would help more than a Truth and Reconciliation Commission; I'm less sure whether any US administration would be willing to go down that road.
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It's fear of losing the little they have that keeps many middle income voters away from left of centre parties.
 
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