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The (almost) bi-polar nature of Naim's products and customers . . .

yeti42 said:
Is the ire reserved for Naim? Anyone else on the shit list? How about Audionote? Very tasty price list, or it would be if it wasn’t need to know only. Who else? There’s a lot of high priced hifi out there when you go looking. If the shows are anything to go by most of it only fit for jazz.
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There are loads of other over-priced for the sonic performance on offer products out there.

Just look at all the slimline, low efficiency ported speakers selling for over £5000.

However, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Indeed. I almost used the Rolex watch analogy myself earlier! The point, as you say, is that it's very successful branding and marketing over actual substance. It's business.

I find this whole "Veblen goods" thing incredibly distasteful and the likes of Naim being able to take a huge slice of the hi fi pie for no other reason than a brand name even more so.

If the Quad 306 was still available it would be maybe £800. Nothing about it's design, construction, parts quality or reliability is any less good than a NAP250... nor, arguably, is the sound! Both were hand made in the UK (then). Naim get away with ripping people off for £4000 simply because it says Naim on it. That's what really boils my piss about them.... that and the way they brainwashed people, along with Linn and numerous dealers all riding the flat earth gravy train, into thinking it really is worth it, to the extent they will queue up on threads such as this to explain why a transformer in a box is worth thousands... and us plebs just don't get it... cos it's not just any transformer in a box it's an M&S erm Naim one:mad::rolleyes: They could no doubt get away with selling an empty Naim shoe box case with just a power-on LED lighting up on the front for £1000 as a way of making your Naim stack look symmetrical :eek:

A&R are not defunct BTW. "Amplification and Recording (Cambridge)" shortened it to "A&R Cambridge" and then to "Arcam":)
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Great post, Jez. I love my Casio F-91W!

S.
 
I think the real issue here is one of brand “cultural“ attitude: Naim products are fine (even though ridiculously over-priced, brand new) but their personnel and devotees exude this obnoxious and condescendingly aggressive attitude towards anyone who disagrees, or questions, their engineering approach, sound quality or upgrade route.
It’s almost Orwellian; “two legs good, four legs bad!”
I’m not slagging off the brand but I am enjoying slagging off their culture and devotees during this Covid-19 lockdown. Thankyou OP for a great Posting....it’s the best!
 
It's a funny old business, isn't it? All these folks getting so frothed up about a successful hi-fi company. Maybe I shouldn't reveal a confidence, but I've had it on very good authority that at least one of the haters developed a lifelong loathing when a passing door-to-door Naim salesman accidentally dropped a NAP250 on his head when he was in his pram.
 
While we are on the subject, has anyone looked at 47 Lab stuff? A lot of that is an utter, utter joke, because they make the mistake of telling you what's in the box. Speaker cables consisting of 2 x 0.4mm copper strands, daft amounts per metre. An amplifier, TPA 3116 or similar, £1000. Come on. It's in a pretty box but £1000?
 
I suppose there is a kind of cultish following but that could apply to a variety of products. I kind of like the cultishness. It makes the brand and followers interesting.I think most just have a reverence and love for the brand which is disarming. It’s impressive that these brands have such loyalty.And the gear does seem almost bombproof and has longevity.
 
Suffolk Tony said:
It's a funny old business, isn't it? All these folks getting so frothed up about a successful hi-fi company. Maybe I shouldn't reveal a confidence, but I've had it on very good authority that at least one of the haters developed a lifelong loathing when a passing door-to-door Naim salesman accidentally dropped a NAP250 on his head when he was in his pram.
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I see threads like this as the hi-fi equivalent of a few drinking buddies down the pub talking about football teams.

Where some of them are taking the mickey out of a couple of Leeds United supporters that think that Leeds are a big club.
And the Leeds supporters are replying with a "You're just haters that are going to hate" line of rhetoric.
 
I suppose there is a rationale behind the high prices. That's their business. If they reduced the prices they might sell more but they must have given consideration to an effective price structure.
As for Naim's gullible customers. There is plenty of choice out there. They can buy what they like.

From personal experience I recall selling paltry 50MB Hard Drives, for network control applications, to customers for over 2 grand in English money. The rationale : they contained very expensive software, also known as intellectual property.
A reason can always be found.
I was told from above, "don't undervalue our services".
 
JoeJoe said:
I think the real issue here is one of brand “cultural“ attitude: Naim products are fine (even though ridiculously over-priced, brand new) but their personnel and devotees exude this obnoxious and condescendingly aggressive attitude towards anyone who disagrees, or questions, their engineering approach, sound quality or upgrade route.!
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Who are these people of whom you speak? Care to to give an actual example or quote illustrating this “obnoxious and condescendingly aggressive attitude,” preferably beyond the anecdotal.
Thanks in anticipation.
 
Naim bashing threads and cable threads tend to be rather long and endless............
Why don’t we start a Naim cable thread just to see how long it would be ????!!!!!! :eek:
 
Arkless Electronics said:
Indeed. I almost used the Rolex watch analogy myself earlier! The point, as you say, is that it's very successful branding and marketing over actual substance. It's business.

I find this whole "Veblen goods" thing incredibly distasteful and the likes of Naim being able to take a huge slice of the hi fi pie for no other reason than a brand name even more so.

If the Quad 306 was still available it would be maybe £800. Nothing about it's design, construction, parts quality or reliability is any less good than a NAP250... nor, arguably, is the sound! Both were hand made in the UK (then). Naim get away with ripping people off for £4000 simply because it says Naim on it. That's what really boils my piss about them.... that and the way they brainwashed people, along with Linn and numerous dealers all riding the flat earth gravy train, into thinking it really is worth it, to the extent they will queue up on threads such as this to explain why a transformer in a box is worth thousands... and us plebs just don't get it... cos it's not just any transformer in a box it's an M&S erm Naim one:mad::rolleyes: They could no doubt get away with selling an empty Naim shoe box case with just a power-on LED lighting up on the front for £1000 as a way of making your Naim stack look symmetrical :eek:

A&R are not defunct BTW. "Amplification and Recording (Cambridge)" shortened it to "A&R Cambridge" and then to "Arcam":)
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I stand corrected re A&R, I did know that but forgot!

I agree that there is nothing less good about the Quad 306. I always admired the "old" Quad amps; the amplifier that introduced me to HiFi was a Quad 22 (I think) with the matching control amp (I don't recall the model). Back in the day, the Quad 303/33 was an aspirational product, but out of reach due to its cost. The Irony is that, if Quad had maintained its high prices and adopted the same approach to marketing as Naim, it would still produce its HiFi products in the UK, but the 306, or its replacement, would cost the same as a Naim NAP 250.

I understand why you don't like the whole branding/luxury goods band wagon, but, to succeed today with a UK manufacturing base, you have little choice other than to get on it!

I often look at fleebay for Quad kit and wonder whether a 306 or 606 was worth a punt!
 
Timcat said:
I stand corrected re A&R, I did know that but forgot!

I agree that there is nothing less good about the Quad 306. I always admired the "old" Quad amps; the amplifier that introduced me to HiFi was a Quad 22 (I think) with the matching control amp (I don't recall the model). Back in the day, the Quad 303/33 was an aspirational product, but out of reach due to its cost. The Irony is that, if Quad had maintained its high prices and adopted the same approach to marketing as Naim, it would still produce its HiFi products in the UK, but the 306, or its replacement, would cost the same as a Naim NAP 250.

I understand why you don't like the whole branding/luxury goods band wagon, but, to succeed today with a UK manufacturing base, you have little choice other than to get on it!

I often look at fleebay for Quad kit and wonder whether a 306 or 606 was worth a punt!
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The Quad that introduced me to HiFi was the Quad II/22 combination.
 
lindsayt said:
I see threads like this as the hi-fi equivalent of a few drinking buddies down the pub talking about football teams.

Where some of them are taking the mickey out of a couple of Leeds United supporters that think that Leeds are a big club.
And the Leeds supporters are replying with a "You're just haters that are going to hate" line of rhetoric.
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I don't know about Leeds United. I think you might be more Farsley Celtic.
 
Often wonder do folks speak as bluntly or rudely in person? Academic right now I give you but in a past life I used to advise people to (a) only say online what you would be comfortable saying face to face with someone in a public space. (b) more aimed at social media but holds true remember that once publicly posted comments can never be deleted and will undoubtedly come back at some point in life.

Seems this advice still holds water as speaking from experience very few people are so short or rude in person thankfully. Why this is deemed acceptable to adults in here is beyond me.
I can only speak for myself I come here to get some useful advice and the odd bit of banter do I agree with everything said of course I don't but I don't feel the need to resort to playground tactics.
If we can't express our opinions and more importantly experience from ownership or demo of equipment then what is the point.
 
say it as it is said:
Often wonder do folks speak as bluntly or rudely in person? Academic right now I give you but in a past life I used to advise people to (a) only say online what you would be comfortable saying face to face with someone in a public space. (b) more aimed at social media but holds true remember that once publicly posted comments can never be deleted and will undoubtedly come back at some point in life.

Seems this advice still holds water as speaking from experience very few people are so short or rude in person thankfully. Why this is deemed acceptable to adults in here is beyond me.
I can only speak for myself I come here to get some useful advice and the odd bit of banter do I agree with everything said of course I don't but I don't feel the need to resort to playground tactics.
If we can't express our opinions and more importantly experience from ownership or demo of equipment then what is the point.
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It is reasonably well known that people can come across as more abrupt and rude than they intend when using electronic forms of communication, like email and, I suppose, also forums like this. I often have to remind people of this in a work context. They ask, why is x being so rude, and I reply that he or she doesn't realise how they are coming across and that they don't mean it.
 
Yes I used to do those simple examples of how written text and spoken text can differ so greatly and the realisation never faded all the times I showed it to different audiences
 
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