Floorstanding speakers - thin versus fat

[Rick_F]

I feel wide baffle speakers tend to use large drivers so produce more of a solid feeling sound stage and at a lower listening volume. Narrow speakers using smaller drivers sound faster to my ears, but need a bit more volume to create the same level of sound stage and is more of an illusion as the bass isn't as solid as the larger speakers. Narrow speakers are better at creating more depth to the sound stage in my experience, though that could just be down to the way they work in my room.

 

[Dozey]

I repeat there is nothing lean about the PMC fact12s. The fact 8s are lean though.

 

[tuga]

Seems that no one so far has heard them both. I have...So what's best?

The best (the one that more accurately reproduces the recording) is the one which performs better in the test bench.

Which one sounds best? Well, that's personal.

 

[Purité Audio]

Explain to me why the physical size of the speaker matters?
Keith

 

[Antifon]

I repeat there is nothing lean about the PMC fact12s. The fact 8s are lean though.

I've not heard that suggested either. On the contrary - I've had a Fact12 owner suggest that they may be a bit OTT for a 8m * 4m room.

I feel wide baffle speakers tend to use large drivers so produce more of a solid feeling sound stage and at a lower listening volume.

Interesting that you use the word ~feel~. Is it just perception, and that it colours how you react to them? I can't escape the feeling that I will somehow expect less from a pair of narrow speakers than a pair of fat speakers, and that will influence how highly (or otherwise) I rate them...

The best (the one that more accurately reproduces the recording) is the one which performs better in the test bench.
Which one sounds best? Well, that's personal.

Agreed - but as I don't have a test bench, and I don't have the option to get either speaker to test before buying, that's academic!

 

[Antifon]

Explain to me why the physical size of the speaker matters?
Keith

Keith - at the simplest level, it can matter in terms of pure practicality. For example a pair of ATC ACM150s in a 2m * 2m room will mean that you won't have much space to move, let alone place the speakers optimally and get other gear in as well. Ok, that's a ridiculous example, but even with slightly bigger rooms and slightly smaller speakers, practicality is important for most people.

 

[Cereal Killer]

From personal experience you need to possess 8" or more for that real feeling of depth lower down

 

[PhilDick]

From personal experience you need 8" or more for that real feeling depth lower down

ooh err missus

 

[tuga]

I've not heard that suggested either. On the contrary - I've had a Fact12 owner suggest that they may be a bit OTT for a 8m * 4m room.



Interesting that you use the word ~feel~. Is it just perception, and that it colours how you react to them? I can't escape the feeling that I will somehow expect less from a pair of narrow speakers than a pair of fat speakers, and that will influence how highly (or otherwise) I rate them...



Agreed - but as I don't have a test bench, and I don't have the option to get either speaker to test before buying, that's academic!

Here you go:

 

[Sean K]

This be the rule: Just buy the biggest pair of active ATCs you can afford.

 

[James]

Keith - at the simplest level, it can matter in terms of pure practicality. For example a pair of ATC ACM150s in a 2m * 2m room will mean that you won't have much space to move, let alone place the speakers optimally and get other gear in as well. Ok, that's a ridiculous example, but even with slightly bigger rooms and slightly smaller speakers, practicality is important for most people.

Tell that to the Japanese audiophiles who keep JBL Everests in impossibly small rooms.

There is, however, a sensible relationship between loudspeaker size and room volume. Really small loudspeakers won't couple properly with the air mass to reproduce convincing bass, even if the loudspeaker has the extension. In that sense, the bigger the better, but the room size matters. A bit like stirring paint - a knitting needle will do, but a broad paddle is better - as long as it fits the container.

 

[mondie]

Explain to me why the physical size of the speaker matters?
Keith

Why should he, it isn't what he said. You claimed the room size doesn't matter so explain away and dazzle us all as to why this is a fact.

 

[Purité Audio]

But he obviously disagreed, I would like him to tell me why I am wrong, perhaps you can?
Keith

 

[ToTo Man]

But he obviously disagreed, I would like him to tell me why I am wrong, perhaps you can?
Keith

After you tell us why the size of the room is irrelevant to a speaker's performance?!

 

[Purité Audio]

Why would it be?
Keith

 

[mondie]

But he obviously disagreed, I would like him to tell me why I am wrong, perhaps you can?
Keith

Nope, that's not how it works, you made the assertion so back it up.

 

[h.g.]

On the contrary - I've had a Fact12 owner suggest that they may be a bit OTT for a 8m * 4m room.

Are you sure they aren't preparing the ground to off-load the speakers onto you?

Setting aside the crossover issue, you can see the reality in the plot posted earlier indicating they lack at least 10 dB clean SPL in the midrange in order to play transients cleanly (say +20 dB headroom above average) in a room that size at a 4m or so listening distance (-12 dB) at standard listening levels (80-85dB). They obviously lack more in the lowest octaves as well but if sound quality is of interest in this frequency range then you will need subs and room control whatever the mains. Crapping out in the midrange is both unusual (it is easy to avoid) and more serious because the ear is significantly more sensitive to distortion at these frequencies compared to the lowest octaves. If you listen 10 dB quieter than standard and/or are not bothered by clean transients (many that like tiny standmounts clearly aren't) then this failing becomes a lot less relevant.

The SCM50 and Fact 12 are significantly different speakers. The former is a high technical performance design suitable for professional use (if someone else pays for it!) the latter is more of a boutique consumer design that is not suitable for professional use. You will note there is nothing like it in the PMC professional range.

 

[Hiesteem]

Have to agree with this assertion. The ATC 50's are so well designed that if their sound quality is likeable enough. Then for me, they are really and end game speaker.

 

[Big Tabs]

Room size dependent for me. A large room and I would have large speakers. Also I had an eyebrow-raise from Mein Schatz when I was intending to get the current speakers, over a metre tall, the smaller width helped lower her eyebrow.

The pmc's I have work well in the hifi room. fb1i's floorstanders. In the TV room, db1i's and a sub look neat and the db1i's are wall-mounted.

I always like the look of my old Leak 2060 sandwich speakers, 12" woofers > eye pleasing.
(an old house with a large room)

 

[Antifon]

Are you sure they aren't preparing the ground to off-load the speakers onto you?

Setting aside the crossover issue, you can see the reality in the plot posted earlier indicating they lack at least 10 dB clean SPL in the midrange in order to play transients cleanly (say +20 dB headroom above average) in a room that size at a 4m or so listening distance (-12 dB) at standard listening levels (80-85dB). They obviously lack more in the lowest octaves as well but if sound quality is of interest in this frequency range then you will need subs and room control whatever the mains. Crapping out in the midrange is both unusual (it is easy to avoid) and more serious because the ear is significantly more sensitive to distortion at these frequencies compared to the lowest octaves. If you listen 10 dB quieter than standard and/or are not bothered by clean transients (many that like tiny standmounts clearly aren't) then this failing becomes a lot less relevant.

The SCM50 and Fact 12 are significantly different speakers. The former is a high technical performance design suitable for professional use (if someone else pays for it!) the latter is more of a boutique consumer design that is not suitable for professional use. You will note there is nothing like it in the PMC professional range.

Thanks for taking the time to explain - I confess that I saw the plots but didn't really understand what I was looking at!

I really don't want to have to deal with a sub - my experience of having tried it several times is that it is so hard to get the balance between sub and main speaker right, and then keep it right at all volume levels. So I don't want to go there again!