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Next Labour Leader II

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Seanm said:
Brutal stuff isn’t it, and free of the usual Guardian pissiness. I’d be interested to see what people here make of it: it aligns with a lot of the centrist take on amateurism and Corbyn’s personal shortcomings, but puts Andrew Fisher and remainers in the frame rather than the bogeyman Milne. His major failing on this telling seems to have been to have allowed himself to get frozen out.
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Labour were stuffed whatever they did. Support remain and piss off the voters supporting leave, support leave, and piss off the voters supporting remain - either would have led to a catastrophic loss of seats. So they chose to sit on the fence hoping they could keep both sides on board, but they didn't and the leave voters were lost.

I remember reading a lot here that sitting on the fence was the only sensible option for Labour. Now with 20/20 hindsight it's being presented as a mistake.
 
With 20/20 hindsight Corbyn should’ve pinned everything on a clear, explicit Leave deal, one including membership of CU and SM. He’d have lost my vote, but perhaps we’d be better off
 
Stunsworth said:
Labour were stuffed whatever they did. Support remain and piss off the voters supporting leave, support leave, and piss off the voters supporting remain - either would have led to a catastrophic loss of seats. So they chose to sit on the fence hoping they could keep both sides on board, but they didn't and the leave voters were lost.

I remember reading a lot here that sitting on the fence was the only sensible option for Labour. Now with 20/20 hindsight it's being presented as a mistake.
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Well that’s the point of reflection, isn’t it? Personally I thought that it was the right thing to do, that working class leavers were peeling away from the no deal crew, that Brexit would be displaced as the number one issue once people got to talk about other things. All fantasies, and shared by people at the top - just not the ones that people usually fixate on.
 
Seanm said:
Well that’s the point of reflection, isn’t it? Personally I thought that it was the right thing to do, that working class leavers were peeling away from the no deal crew, that Brexit would be displaced as the number one issue once people got to talk about other things. All fantasies, and shared by people at the top - just not the ones that people usually fixate on.
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The point is, it was really all he could have done other than to capitulate
 
Stunsworth said:
Labour were stuffed whatever they did. Support remain and piss off the voters supporting leave, support leave, and piss off the voters supporting remain - either would have led to a catastrophic loss of seats. So they chose to sit on the fence hoping they could keep both sides on board, but they didn't and the leave voters were lost.

I remember reading a lot here that sitting on the fence was the only sensible option for Labour. Now with 20/20 hindsight it's being presented as a mistake.
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Remainers were the majority in the Labour party and their support - there is no evidence that would have worked. It still wouldn't have tackled the biggest issue which was Corbyn himself. I am still amazed at the hostility among even Labour voting people who I know quite well. He was far from my choice but not enough to put me off voting Labour as the only alternative to Johnson and more Tory government.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...3/their-own-words-why-voters-abandoned-labour
 
SteveS1 said:
Remainers were the majority in the Labour party and their support - there is no evidence that would have worked. It still wouldn't have tackled the biggest issue which was Corbyn himself. I am still amazed at the hostility among even Labour voting people who I know quite well. He was far from my choice but not enough to put me off voting Labour as the only alternative to Johnson and more Tory government.
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This was from a YouGov poll yesterday of Labour members

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.n...020-01-21/Labour leaders favourability-01.png
 
gavreid said:
This was from a YouGov poll yesterday of Labour members

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2020-01-21/Labour leaders favourability-01.png
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Blair unpopular among Labour members shock. Many who didn't consider the Labour party left wing enough to join prior to the Corbyn/Momentum push.

Not the people you need to convince. But if you wish to ignore the reasons the actual electorate gave for not voting Labour in 2019, I can see it's appeal.
 
thebigfredc said:
Perhaps they were self employed or ran a business - the Tories have historically championed lower corporation tax rates so that may have been their motive.

Perhaps they or someone close to them had been traumatised by a crime and the perpetrator had been given only a light sentence and it could be argued that the Conservatives at least talk tough on crime.

I am only guessing of course but at least that is better than Jack's determining the way people should vote by skin colour approach and way better than labelling them as stupid from a 10 second cameo on the telly.
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So...not at all self deluding, then?
 
NeilR said:
So the most successful leader ever is the most disliked!
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Like Johnson. And Trump.

Success is based on lies and deceit

And the numbers who dislike the lies and deceit is swamped by those that do

Oh God I’m depressed...
 
Roger Adams said:
The issue, for me, was that the message on taxation never reached the public - people had to delve deeper than headlines to hear the words "fully costed" unlike the repetitive mantra "Bet Brexit Done!".

My post simply tries to cover the issue that British society faces. People need to face a comprehensive reform of the tax system - primarily aimed at making sure that the top earners pay their share just as PAYE employees do.

The message has to come across however that both direct and indirect taxation is taken to provide the services that we all depend on - and that making those (or keeping them as) non profit operations, 95% of the British Public receive a better standard of living and savings in real terms. Genuinely "taking back control" if you like. :)

People need to be taught by a political force that this is actually in their interests. At this point in history, we have a generation who bemoan the quality of the goods whilst expecting to pay next to nothing for them. Great Britain is not T K Max.
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It wasn't fully costed, that is not true, the Waspi cash was not included in the spending budget.

Given the timescale Labour did need a simpler message, that is where they failed rather than the detail of the policies. This is the beauty of hindsight though, we can pick over the bones at our leisure. Real time is much more difficult.
 
gavreid said:
I was Brexit wot done it ;) And, very clearly, those remainers who tried to tie Corbyn's hands to a second referendum - even the Guardian has come around to this analysis.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/21/crushed-by-brexit-how-labour-lost-the-election
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Remainders came from all parts of the party including the left, so should the LP not represent is members? Seems contrary to earlier musings.

For the record I was not in favour of 2nd ref even though I am a remainer
 
Roger Adams said:
When a good percentage of the British Public genuinely analysed the proposals, they could see that it was a genuine attempt (from a genuine man) to redress the inequality and greed that has become all pervasive amongst the older generations. It was only my age group (the over 50's,) that voted for a Conservative working majority - much like the referendum on membership of the EU where the same age group voted to leave. I find it sad that the very people who need to face the future have been denied it by those looking back and not forward.
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What evidence do you have of this? I think you may be projecting here. Not sure the electorate share your view of Corbyn even in hindsight.
 
NeilR said:
So the most successful leader ever is the most disliked!
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He's actually still better liked amongst members than the general public, so hopefully this won't degenerate into the usual "Ideological puritans hate winners!" mince.

49423587961_ee3b71c447_b.jpg
 
Have we got one for Corbyn? Of course JC might have settled for that after winning three elections.
 
thebigfredc said:
Perhaps they were self employed or ran a business - the Tories have historically championed lower corporation tax rates so that may have been their motive.

Perhaps they or someone close to them had been traumatised by a crime and the perpetrator had been given only a light sentence and it could be argued that the Conservatives at least talk tough on crime.

I am only guessing of course but at least that is better than Jack's determining the way people should vote by skin colour approach and way better than labelling them as stupid from a 10 second cameo on the telly.
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As you have said, you are guessing.

You don't appear to like people calling Johnson and the Tories racist, given what you have posted in the past. In fact you don't think that England is a racist country at all, I seem to recall.

Some of my best friends are black. They think black people who voted for Johnson and the Tories are idiots and self-defeating. You are just some white bloke on pfm. I know whose judgement I trust.

Jack
 
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