Election night 2019 / aftermath II

[Joe]

we all benefit from improved infrastructure, reduced homelessness, lower crime rates, support for the arts, and so on.

Except we don't.

The disproportionate spending on London is ,and always has been, a bone of contention in the North.

Transport....£419 per head more then the rest of the country . ( the rest of the country are paying for it )

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/01/transport-spending-gap-london-north-of-england-ippr

Arts...15 times greater than outside London. ( the rest of the country are paying for it )

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2013/oct/31/public-arts-spending-london-15-times-greater

Unless these discrepancies are addressed there will be no cohesion in the country and the country will find it much much harder to resist being dismantled. There never really has been a Union. It has always been London and The Rest.

 

[Joe]

It's based around giving free stuff to those who genuinely need it and taking it from those with more money than they know what to do with! It's just that Labour is incredibly incompetent.

You do post some stuff at times !

You do know that teachers, nurses , public employees of all sorts ( and everyone else ) all pay tax ?

a) therefor it's not "free stuff". Everyone else has to pay for it.
b) The people the money is taken from do know what to do with their money. A lot of them are hard pressed to pay their own bills too.

The problem with your form of armchair socialism* is you really do think that it is just a question of taking money from people you hate and giving it away to people you like.

* If you a member of the Labour party, attend ward meetings and canvass for them I will amend my post for you .

 

[Philim]

I find the triumphalism and name calling boorish and enlightening at the same time. It shows, if nothing else, that we are as divided a society as we have ever been. I grew up in and have spent most of my life in what would be called working class communities, including places that have switched their allegiances in this election to a party that would have been unfathomable only a decade ago. We have become a nation split on the Brexit divide and more and more communities have switched to the leave campaign, believing that leaving the EU will allow Britain to control its own destiny. It will, so the question then is only which party will control Britain's destiny in a way that serves the population of the UK in the best way possible.

My family has been split down the middle. In fact, it hasn't as I am the only one in my entire family who does not support the will of the people. I am dismayed when I speak to my family of former coal miners and my former shop-steward father. I am dismayed that they would seek to ride on the Brexit bus when we are a family of Irish immigrants who fled poverty and famine for a new life in England. I do not ignore their concerns - they believe that they cannot get an appointment at their GP because of immigration and they believe that the record numbers of homeless are because of immigration and that road journeys have become intolerably busy because of immigration. Meanwhile, in a world they describe as nonsense, I suggest to them that not building any affordable housing, despite a manifesto promise, is a part of the homelessness plight. When I say that the NHS and schools have seen declining budgets for a decade they say that the previous Labour government are to blame, as they do when I remind them of a doubling of National debt over the last decade. And when I ask why my family, who have moved for a better life to Tenerife, are ex-pats and not immigrants, and that we will need to deal with the 5.5m UK nationals who live abroad, they say I shouldn't criticise my cousin.

I only hope that it is I who is proven wrong because if I am right, Moss Side where I grew up is doomed. Burnley, where I worked for five years and which is now Conservative for the first time in living memory, is doomed. If I am wrong, the steel works of South Yorkshire and the North East will grind into action once more as we can independently control what we do.

As with most things in life the reality is somewhere in the middle. It is with much frustration that because sides are so polarised no sensible debate in the middle ground can be had. If it could have I am sure brexit wouldnt have happened.

 

[Joe]

As I've been saying for years labour need to get nasty. They need to buy/control newspapers and TV stations in the same way as capitalist scum do and then they must part educate and part brainwash the public into realising what is good for them... like I said it is a great product so shouldn't need much advertising! Labour need to get the public hating and ridiculing the rich and big PLC's in the same way as tory scum has brainwashed them into hating the most vulnerable in society. Hell I'd welcome them getting a new leader that made Trump look like a trustworthy and pleasant guy if it got Labour where it needs to be! Labour need to be willing to lie, cheat, threaten, use fake news etc with the best of them if this is what it takes... and unfortunately the scum have made it so yes it is how it needs to be.... for now. FFS I've often thought that Labour are so incompetent and leaving such an open goal most of the time that they are probably being paid off by the tory scum all along!

!

Have you ANY idea how close all of what you wrote is to the writings of Hitler ? ..just change 'capitalist scum' for 'Jewish zionist conspiracy '. Change 'tory scum' for the same.

I no more want your world than his. You are the very people that he appealed to at first ...he relied on his supporters being as "thick as mince" too.

 

[Philim]

unfortunately it appears labour is sticking to its approach of blaming everyone else for its issues and not recognising why it got battered. That is a shame as we will need a strong opposition.
If the labour party doesn't wrestle itself away from student union politics and more centre left it will repeat this again in 5 years.
It needs to offer hope not hatred fear and lies.

 

[Philim]

Have you ANY idea how close all of what you wrote is to the writings of Hitler ? ..just change 'capitalist scum' for 'Jewish zionist conspiracy '. Change 'tory scum' for the same.

I no more want your world than his. You are the very people that he appealed to at first ...he relied on his supporters being as "thick as mince" too.

Most people in this country did realise this which is why they are where they are.
They thought they could put a veneer of nice, cuddly corbyn around it and they could buy people's vote with lies and fear. Thankfully the public were not as thick as these people wish they were. I hope that whatever emerges from the flames of labour; it banishes views like that to the same place bnp went.

 

[deanf]

The Labour Party would do better to spend a little time listening rather than talking. Too many live in a vacuum.

 

[oldius]

unfortunately it appears labour is sticking to its approach of blaming everyone else for its issues and not recognising why it got battered. That is a shame as we will need a strong opposition.
If the labour party doesn't wrestle itself away from student union politics and more centre left it will repeat this again in 5 years.
It needs to offer hope not hatred fear and lies.

There is definitely a lot of truth in that. It is a genuine problem because what we then achieve are politicians who want power, not politicians who believe in what they say. Achieving power though is the only way to truly influence the country's direction. I certainly do not hate billionaires; I do not hate anyone I do not know, but I do despise a government that allows and promotes behaviours in the wealthy that would not be tolerated by the majority of people in the UK; tax avoidance being the main one. I know that Oxfam believe that there is $21 trillion invested offshore! That cannot be right in a society with the social ills we face. Meanwhile, the media which is owned by billionaires who are based offshore, is allowed to dramatically influence political thinking.

As for "student union politics", it is an easy slur to make and is the kind of insult cast in the currently triumphalist pages of the Daily Mail. Their pages and comments sections for a number of stories are full of bile about young people and their aspirations for society. If we wish to advance, listening properly to young people, with the intention of being influenced, will make for a better society.

 

[NeilR]

I hope that whatever emerges from the flames of labour; it banishes views like that to the same place bnp went.

if you read what Labour people on here like Robert are saying, it is all going according to the master plan and all they need now is another left wing leader in the Corbyn mould for one more push. The theory being that the country will come to them not the other way round.

 

[Philim]

if you read what Labour people on here like Robert are saying, it is all going according to the master plan and all they need now is another left wing leader in the Corbyn mould for one more push. The theory being that the country will come to them not the other way round.

Meanwhile they completely missed the fact that the Tories stole the middle ground where elections are won.

 

[ciderglider]

Yes I think there’s no getting past this. Although unionisation is also key.

Unionisation sounds like a great idea, but easier said than done. I wouldn't think you would get many recruits among white collar workers. And I would think Amazon and their like do everything they can to resist union recognition.

 

[chartz]

The Labour Party would do better to spend a little time listening rather than talking. Too many live in a vacuum.

Here in France socialists and Greens tell the truth about political issues. They actually care.
The other guys try very hard to tell people what they might want to hear, then do the contrary.
They don’t give a damn about people’s everyday lives.

 

[Tony L]

Here in France socialists and Greens tell the truth about political issues. They actually care.

Do they really go in and attack though? To my mind that has been a major failure of Labour in this campaign. They tried never to go ‘low’, which whilst admirable in some ways I am certain cost them dearly against Cummings vacuous soundbites, blatant lies and distortions. I was thinking about this late last night and in hindsight I’d have absolutely weaponised the following:

• Windrush: I’d have bill posters of Theresa May’s face behind a list of those deported or driven to their death.

• Grenfell: I’d use Steve Bell’s wonderful cartoon of the burnt out husk of the tower with the Conservative logo on top and a slogan along the lines of ‘A beacon to Conservative cost-cutting and intransigence’ along with a web-link to all the safety concerns flagged by the residents association and the fact the local Tory administration actually cut the council tax for the richest people in the country whilst cutting corners that cost so many lives. They do actually own these deaths.

• Hostile Environment: I’d just contrast and compare it to the propaganda in early Nazi Germany and maybe have a ‘who said the following’ quiz with a statement and a) Joseph Goebells, b) Michael Gove (or whoever, there is a lot of mileage here).

• Benefits: A backdrop of IDS and Esther McVey with the substantial list of handicapped people driven to suicide by their ‘bedroom tax’ and venal repeated ‘fitness for work’ assessments (all too often by unqualified privatised entities) etc. Lots of mileage here. Lots of names .

• Homelessness: one person dies on the streets of the UK every 19 hours. The Conservative Party owns that one outright. They also own the thousands who barely survive each night.

• Hospitals: again just use the message that Conservative penny pinching costs lives. List those lives. All of them. Like on a war grave.

I fundamentally disagree with Jez in that I absolutely oppose lying. I'd not touch anything I couldn’t very easily verify with hard facts from government sources. Everything must stand up to the brightest spotlight, but the basic message should be to connect the Conservative party to the death and misery they alone have created, and do so in a very personal way. Nail it onto specific MPs etc.

PS I didn’t mention Brexit once, though obviously I’d have made the anti-white ethnic nationalism/fascism case there too.

 

[notaclue]

"Labour lost vote share in 98% of seats" https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...nge-as-johnson-eyes-decade-in-no-10-rkw86zvfr

And that article says Johnson is likely to introduce the planned boundary changes. The majority Johnson got suggests he'll be another multi-term Thatcher or Blair so I reckon it's almost inevitable that he'll be able to introduce the changes.

As if the current map isn't bad enough. Without PR, we'll be looking at Tory governments for an awfully long time.

The fear of losing Scotland and Northern Ireland will be the most effective opposition over the next few years.

 

[Alex S]

I've been listening to Johnson over the last couple of days and it turns out I made a big mistake in this election. I care for the poor, the hungry, the sick, the homeless, the disabled, the young, the planet. I embrace multiculturalism, multi ethnicity, Europeans, immigration and didn't vote from self interest. I should have voted Conservative! Thankfully, I'm in a minority and they have won a big majority.

 

[Funk]

unfortunately it appears labour is sticking to its approach of blaming everyone else for its issues and not recognising why it got battered. That is a shame as we will need a strong opposition.
If the labour party doesn't wrestle itself away from student union politics and more centre left it will repeat this again in 5 years.
It needs to offer hope not hatred fear and lies.

Couldn't agree more. We need a competent, functioning opposition to hold any sitting government to account, no matter which colour rosette they each have on.

 

[matthewr]

I've fast realised that PFM is a left-wing echo chamber.

I don't think it is though. It has a plurality of views that mean it seems different to much of what one hears on the BBC and, especially, in the press. There are plenty of centre right, right and some hard right voices here.

 

[Funk]

That's good to know. Balance is important.

 

[Mike Reed]

The fear of losing Scotland and Northern Ireland will be the most effective opposition over the next few years.

Now that the Nationalists have the majority in N.I., I wonder how the vote would go if a referendum were held to become a united Ireland (again) or remain separated. Scotland, I feel, is a different matter, and I'm not at all sure if the rise of the SNP denotes an overall swing to independence or simply frustration at domestic policies. Has there really been such a massive change of heart in a few years that Scotland can successfully go it alone and realign with the E.U.?

 

[Ponty]

The Labour Party would do better to spend a little time listening rather than talking. Too many live in a vacuum.

An old boss of mine always used to say you’ve got 2 ears and one mouth for a reason, use them in that ratio.

I do hope that labour sort themselves out as under our current system, we desperately need an effective opposition for a fully functioning government. If another momentum / Corbyn type takes over, Boris will be using a zimmer frame before he leaves No 10.