Election night 2019 / aftermath

[MikeMA]

Who cares!

I do, along with others who think it would be better for democracy if we had a parliament that better reflected the votes of the electorate.

Also, it goes some way to restoring my faith in humanity to know that the majority of the electorate did not vote for a fat lying Tory cvnt.

Will that do?

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Unless the Labour party gets its act together, and soon, then we are. That means credible policies, a credible leader, and credible responses to the questions of the day. There was none of this this time and we saw the result. If the Labour party wants to stay in the 1930s, fine. Just carry on as you are. Otherwise change. The only Labour government of the last 40 years has been Blair and Brown with their Tory -lite policies. Choose ideology or choose election. Up to you.

I couldn't disagree more. The policies of the 30's and 70's are still what we need today. Nothing has changed.
Socialism should be the easiest sell ever! It's based around giving free stuff to those who genuinely need it and taking it from those with more money than they know what to do with! It's just that Labour is incredibly incompetent.

 

[h.g.]

Interesting reading. A few points that disagree with much of the above.

We have a hard right government and an imminent brexit because the progressive parties chose not to win. They got more of the vote and had they collaborated with each other and made it clear to the general population why matters were so serious they were collaborating it would have almost certainly have prevented some from holding their noses and voting to get brexit done. They chose not to do this. Had the labour party replaced Corbyn with pretty much anybody 6 months ago we would probably have a majority labour government and be remaining in the EU. They chose not to do this. The conservative party and particularly the brexit party on the other hand opted to do what was necessary to win. They had a weaker hand but played it well. We lost because we were substantially more incompetent than our opposition. Learn from it.

Given the UKs structural weaknesses, the current downward social and economic trajectory for the 99%, plus the negative consequences of leaving the EU things will get substantially and noticeably worse for the 99% in the near future. This is now unavoidable and will almost certainly mean the current conservative government is not going to last 10 years and possibly not even 5 if there is a semi-electable alternative. The bar the labour party will need to clear is going to be pretty low so FFS remove control from the small unelectable hard left.

Johnson may be a buffoon but he largely did as he was told in order to get elected. The people telling him what to do are competent unlike the equivalents in the libdem and labour parties. The assumption that he will be an incompetent in the manner of Trump is not necessarily true. He may be more like Reagan and leave most of the governing to those more competent. We don't know yet which way the conservative party will swing.

The gammon are not stupid racists. Their reasons for voting against their best interests are almost wholly factually wrong but they don't make decisions in the manner of the well educated by gathering as many of the facts for and against and weighing them up in discussion and a bit of pondering. They know they haven't mastered the facts but they can support what feels right. Getting the brexit mess resolved feels right. Change feels right. A strong and effective leader feels right. The progressive parties failed because they didn't set the topics for "the gammon" to sign up to emotionally. Learn from it.

 

[flatpopely]

I couldn't disagree more. The policies of the 30's and 70's are still what we need today. Nothing has changed.
Socialism should be the easiest sell ever! It's based around giving free stuff to those who genuinely need it and taking it from those with more money than they know what to do with! It's just that Labour is incredibly incompetent.

Above is the very reason WHY Labour won't get into power anytime soon.
Who decides what is too much money? £30k per year £50k, £80k, £100k..................people live up to their earnings.

 

[eternumviti]

Wonderful, perfect, completely devoid of antisemitism. The only antisemitism was that made up by the sort of newspapers that Tory scum read

Keep taking the pills, Jez.

 

[ff1d1l]

Interesting reading. A few points that disagree with much of the above.

We have a hard right government and an imminent brexit because the progressive parties chose not to win. They got more of the vote and had they collaborated with each other and made it clear to the general population why matters were so serious they were collaborating it would have almost certainly have prevented some from holding their noses and voting to get brexit done. They chose not to do this. Had the labour party replaced Corbyn with pretty much anybody 6 months ago we would probably have a majority labour government and be remaining in the EU. They chose not to do this. The conservative party and particularly the brexit party on the other hand opted to do what was necessary to win. They had a weaker hand but played it well. We lost because we were substantially more incompetent than our opposition. Learn from it.

Given the UKs structural weaknesses, the current downward social and economic trajectory for the 99%, plus the negative consequences of leaving the EU things will get substantially and noticeably worse for the 99% in the near future. This is now unavoidable and will almost certainly mean the current conservative government is not going to last 10 years and possibly not even 5 if there is a semi-electable alternative. The bar the labour party will need to clear is going to be pretty low so FFS remove control from the small unelectable hard left.

Johnson may be a buffoon but he largely did as he was told in order to get elected. The people telling him what to do are competent unlike the equivalents in the libdem and labour parties. The assumption that he will be an incompetent in the manner of Trump is not necessarily true. He may be more like Reagan and leave most of the governing to those more competent. We don't know yet which way the conservative party will swing.

The gammon are not stupid racists. Their reasons for voting against their best interests are almost wholly factually wrong but they don't make decisions in the manner of the well educated by gathering as many of the facts for and against and weighing them up in discussion and a bit of pondering. They know they haven't mastered the facts but they can support what feels right. Getting the brexit mess resolved feels right. Change feels right. A strong and effective leader feels right. The progressive parties failed because they didn't set the topics for "the gammon" to sign up to emotionally. Learn from it.

As perceptive a post as there has been on here since the ref.

 

[eternumviti]

Interesting reading. A few points that disagree with much of the above.

We have a hard right government and an imminent brexit because the progressive parties chose not to win. They got more of the vote and had they collaborated with each other and made it clear to the general population why matters were so serious they were collaborating it would have almost certainly have prevented some from holding their noses and voting to get brexit done. They chose not to do this. Had the labour party replaced Corbyn with pretty much anybody 6 months ago we would probably have a majority labour government and be remaining in the EU. They chose not to do this. The conservative party and particularly the brexit party on the other hand opted to do what was necessary to win. They had a weaker hand but played it well. We lost because we were substantially more incompetent than our opposition. Learn from it.

Given the UKs structural weaknesses, the current downward social and economic trajectory for the 99%, plus the negative consequences of leaving the EU things will get substantially and noticeably worse for the 99% in the near future. This is now unavoidable and will almost certainly mean the current conservative government is not going to last 10 years and possibly not even 5 if there is a semi-electable alternative. The bar the labour party will need to clear is going to be pretty low so FFS remove control from the small unelectable hard left.

Johnson may be a buffoon but he largely did as he was told in order to get elected. The people telling him what to do are competent unlike the equivalents in the libdem and labour parties. The assumption that he will be an incompetent in the manner of Trump is not necessarily true. He may be more like Reagan and leave most of the governing to those more competent. We don't know yet which way the conservative party will swing.

The gammon are not stupid racists. Their reasons for voting against their best interests are almost wholly factually wrong but they don't make decisions in the manner of the well educated by gathering as many of the facts for and against and weighing them up in discussion and a bit of pondering. They know they haven't mastered the facts but they can support what feels right. Getting the brexit mess resolved feels right. Change feels right. A strong and effective leader feels right. The progressive parties failed because they didn't set the topics for "the gammon" to sign up to emotionally. Learn from it.

You patronising....!

 

[Tony L]

Johnson may be a buffoon but he largely did as he was told in order to get elected. The people telling him what to do are competent unlike the equivalents in the libdem and labour parties.

I’d personally change the word ‘competent’ for ‘fundamentally crooked and dishonest’. Dominic Cummings is just as crooked and fraudulent as Nigel Farage or Arron Banks. His modus operandi just a catalogue of lies, smears, fakery and distortion. By hiring him Johnson’s campaign has made this behaviour mainstream and sunk UK politics so far into the gutter it will likely never recover. Boris Johnson saw Joseph Goebbels and thought ‘here, hold my beer...’.

 

[Marchbanks]

As perceptive a post as there has been on here since the ref.

Did you not read mine about all seagulls being named Brian?

 

[Funk]

Interesting reading. A few points that disagree with much of the above.

We have a hard right government and an imminent brexit because the progressive parties chose not to win.

It only looks 'hard right' to you because you're standing so far over to the left.

 

[eternumviti]

Did you not read mine about all seagulls being named Brian?

Yes, and the one about all the penguins being called Eric.

Was that you too?

 

[PsB]

There really wasn’t any purge, or ideological purity: there was a refusal to demonise immigrants and benefits claimants, which is what people generally meant when talk turned to pragmatism. Not compromising on that, or on an ethical foreign policy, but if the right of the party have ideas about other stuff no-one’s going to shout them down. The trouble with the right is that, apart from transphobia, they haven’t come up with anything new for years: the idea that they’re being censored by ideological puritans is basically cover for that.

Agree that a good communicator would be very useful right now: someone who can aggressively take Johnson to task on the upcoming Brexit fiasco, because no journalist will. It’s very sad that we lost Pidcock, who could’ve done this from the left, but I’m actually not sure how important the leader’s politics are right now: they’ll struggle to shift policy to the right.

Okay, there was no purge. Maybe some of the people I’m thinking about just drifted away of their own volition.
I would like to think that refusing to demonize immigrants and benefits claimants is intrinsically part of what the LP is about.
Not quite sure what an ethical foreign policy is, TBH. Which/whose ethics?

 

[Fatmarley]

What happened to the post about illusory truth effect? Thought that was interesting.

 

[TheDecameron]

Johnson has been touring the northern Labour heartlands to thank them for voting Tory. He’s probably singing a different version of Ry Cooder- “The very thing that makes me rich will make you poor”

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Above is the very reason WHY Labour won't get into power anytime soon.
Who decides what is too much money? £30k per year £50k, £80k, £100k..................people live up to their earnings.

Nope they would have won easily this time around if it wasn't for Brexit and the way it split the vote of the thick as mince public. The racism party came 3rd in many seats... they wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for Brexit!
In most long time Labour seats the main reason why so many lost their senses and voted Tory was purely that they were so stupid they wanted to be turkeys voting for xmas!

As I've been saying for years Labour need to get nasty. They need to buy/control newspapers and TV stations in the same way as capitalist scum do and then they must part educate and part brainwash the public into realising what is good for them... like I said it is a great product so shouldn't need much advertising! Labour need to get the public hating and ridiculing the rich and big PLC's in the same way as tory scum has brainwashed them into hating the most vulnerable in society. Hell I'd welcome them getting a new leader that made Trump look like a trustworthy and pleasant guy if it got Labour where it needs to be! Labour need to be willing to lie, cheat, threaten, use fake news etc with the best of them if this is what it takes... and unfortunately the scum have made it so yes it is how it needs to be.... for now. FFS I've often thought that Labour are so incompetent and leaving such an open goal most of the time that they are probably being paid off by the tory scum all along!

If the scum media machine can persuade people on ZHC to vote for more of the same, car workers to vote to lose their own jobs, the disabled to vote for more assessments and reduced benefits and single mothers for no doubt a cut in their child benefit then it should be easy!

 

[matt j]

I like how the pound jumped off the back of the exit poll, I bet all the Tory crooks were rubbing their hands together hard enough to start a fire.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

Keep taking the pills, Jez.

If you think there was any genuine antisemitism in the Labour party then you are even more stupid than revealed by your political beliefs. Unfortunately capitalist scum have twisted this to their advantage, after setting up the whole lie quite deliberately in the first place and without any real resistance, in such a way that I'm "not allowed" to meaningfully fight against this as I WILL be called an antisemite if I speak self evident truths on the matter. You know what I THINK though

 

[flatpopely]

Nope they would have won easily this time around if it wasn't for Brexit and the way it split the vote of the thick as mince public. The racism party came 3rd in many seats... they wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for Brexit!
In most long time Labour seats the main reason why so many lost their senses and voted Tory was purely that they were so stupid they wanted to be turkeys voting for xmas!

As I've been saying for years Labour need to get nasty. They need to buy/control newspapers and TV stations in the same way as capitalist scum do and then they must part educate and part brainwash the public into realising what is good for them... like I said it is a great product so shouldn't need much advertising! Labour need to get the public hating and ridiculing the rich and big PLC's in the same way as tory scum has brainwashed them into hating the most vulnerable in society. Hell I'd welcome them getting a new leader that made Trump look like a trustworthy and pleasant guy if it got Labour where it needs to be! Labour need to be willing to lie, cheat, threaten, use fake news etc with the best of them if this is what it takes... and unfortunately the scum have made it so yes it is how it needs to be.... for now. FFS I've often thought that Labour are so incompetent and leaving such an open goal most of the time that they are probably being paid off by the tory scum all along!

If the scum media machine can persuade people on ZHC to vote for more of the same, car workers to vote to lose their own jobs, the disabled to vote for more assessments and reduced benefits and single mothers for no doubt a cut in their child benefit then it should be easy!

So the very things you hate the Tories for you want Labour to embrace...........

 

[Funk]

Nope they would have won easily this time around if it wasn't for Brexit and the way it split the vote of the thick as mince public. The racism party came 3rd in many seats... they wouldn't have existed if it wasn't for Brexit!
In most long time Labour seats the main reason why so many lost their senses and voted Tory was purely that they were so stupid they wanted to be turkeys voting for xmas!

This is the kind of attitude that lost you the election. The sneering, haughty, we-have-the-moral-high-ground attitude is utterly misplaced and frankly pretty unsavoury.

As I've been saying for years Labour need to get nasty. They need to buy/control newspapers and TV stations in the same way as capitalist scum do and then they must part educate and part brainwash the public into realising what is good for them... like I said it is a great product so shouldn't need much advertising!

Just...wow. Politics of envy, stirring up hatred, abuse... No wonder the majority of voters don't want to engage with die-hard Labour fanatics (I'm wondering whether I'll regret replying at all to this post as it happens).

Labour need to get the public hating and ridiculing the rich and big PLC's in the same way as tory scum has brainwashed them into hating the most vulnerable in society. Hell I'd welcome them getting a new leader that made Trump look like a trustworthy and pleasant guy if it got Labour where it needs to be! Labour need to be willing to lie, cheat, threaten, use fake news etc with the best of them if this is what it takes... and unfortunately the scum have made it so yes it is how it needs to be.... for now. FFS I've often thought that Labour are so incompetent and leaving such an open goal most of the time that they are probably being paid off by the tory scum all along!

Please, PLEASE tell me this is a joke? This is just pretty much 'hate-speech' ranting at this stage.

I've fast realised that PFM is a left-wing echo chamber. I don't expect a civil response but I do feel I have to comment when vitriolic bile is spouted and your post took the biscuit.

Labour and its shrinking voter base have to realise that most people are either slightly left-of-centre, centrist or slightly right-of-centre. When the only choice those people were given was between Corbyn and McDonnell's crazy ultra-left, Momentum/union-controlled vision and the right-of-centre Tory party - well, the evidence is there to see. The Tories were, on this occasion, centrist enough to win over 'safe' Labour seats. To paint it as 'Brexit' being responsible is short-sighted and illogical; the reasons Labour lost (and keep losing, and by greater margins) are myriad. The ONLY time Labour have been in power in the last 40 years was when they moved toward the centre ground and convinced a number of Tory voters to give them a crack. They then set about systematically ****ing up the economy, racking up the borrowing, committing the country to billions in PFI and despite tripling education spending they achieved no real increase in results over that time.

Even if the Labour messages were remotely sensible, do you really think calling those who vote differently to you 'scum', 'thick as mince' and 'racists' is the best way to get them to listen to what you have to say and convince them to agree with you? For a group who are all (supposedly) all about fairness, equality, inclusion and hugs the typical left-wing voter seems to generally be rather unpleasant (and there are many, many examples of that in this thread). Not only that but The Left seem pathologically incapable of accepting defeat with grace - it's always someone else's fault, the 'wrong sort of democracy' and we've already seen people marching around with placards objecting to the outcome of a democratic vote! It's the adult equivalent of a sulky, stampy-feet temper-tantrum.

It's no wonder most moderate, quiet people just simply don't want to put themselves in the way of the vile abuse routinely hurled around by left-wing voters; they just quietly vote the way they feel is best and stay off the radar. I'm sure I'm about to get a torrent of it myself but I'm a big lad and I'll happily have a civil conversation about it.

 

[Arkless Electronics]

So the very things you hate the Tories for you want Labour to embrace...........

No not the core of Tory beliefs that I hate them for. But yes I'd see them embrace the lies, deceit, hatred that come so naturally to Tories but are so against the grain to the left for good rather than evil.