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Winter election III

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Tony L said:
Even allowing you to paraphrase so inaccurately it is still not wrong, e.g. if Labour can’t even convince their own bloody electorate not to vote for a lying fascist that is clearly intent on eroding human rights and civil liberties whilst allowing party-backing asset-strippers to dismantle the state there comes a time we must conclude that electorate is pigshit stupid.
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But it’s wider than just lying politicians, when it comes to antisemitism, the one issue that has undone a Labour victory more than any other, it’s also a lying, or at least complicit media. The Jewish Chronicle, the author or much of the accusations of institutional and widespread antisemitism within Labour, has been found by IPSO to be guilty of lying, yet there are many, including many on pfm, that have quite gleefully jumped on the AS bandwagon. Are they ‘pigshit stupid’ as well?
 
Seanm said:
"It's the people's fault" is Green's position, and Tony's. It's the opposite of my position.

My position is that as long as you have a media system that cossets lying politicians, lying politicians are going to keep lying, and people are going to become more disillusioned, disengaged and angry.

Of course it doesn't help that there are people whose first response to the idea of media reform is, "Oh so you want to murder people do you, leaving only the like-minded?"

Please take responsibility for your own fantasies of mass murder and stop laying them at the door of the left.
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Please don't extrapolate any of those positions to being my fantasy. You strike me as being better than that.
 
Seanm said:
"It's the people's fault" is Green's position, and Tony's. It's the opposite of my position.

My position is that as long as you have a media system that cossets lying politicians, lying politicians are going to keep lying, and people are going to become more disillusioned, disengaged and angry.

Of course it doesn't help that there are people whose first response to the idea of media reform is, "Oh so you want to murder people do you, leaving only the like-minded?"

Please take responsibility for your own fantasies of mass murder and stop laying them at the door of the left.
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You really think media reform is an answer to a polarized and divided nation? Would that get the awkward, misinformed (etc, etc,) 17.2m around to the right ways of thinking (like yours..)?
 
cooky1257 said:
I've actually moved from thinking a sizeable portion of electorate must be stupid to ignore BJ/Tory lies, racism and nascent fascism to actually believing based on the evidence doled up daily in the media that a sizeable proportion of the electorate is indeed racist/nascent fascist and BJ is exactly their type of leader.
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You may well be right. But what are the practical, timely, ethical solutions to problematic proportion of society, and to maintain fairness within democracy?

I don't expect you to have all the answers btw, but it's right to heart of the matter.
 
Seanm said:
"It's the people's fault" is Green's position, and Tony's. It's the opposite of my position.

My position is that as long as you have a media system that cossets lying politicians, lying politicians are going to keep lying, and people are going to become more disillusioned, disengaged and angry.
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I’m not sure where my neighbour, who told me ‘of course he lies, he’s got to if he is going to get Brexit sorted out!’ fits in these analyses.
 
cooky1257 said:
I've actually moved from thinking a fair portion of electorate must be stupid to ignore BJ/Tory lies, racism and nascent fascism to actually believing based on the evidence doled up on the media that a fair proportion of the electorate is indeed racist/nascent fascist and BJ is exactly their type of leader.
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On the door I've found that a common response to the idea that the Conservatives are liars is, "Yes but they all are!" It's difficult to refute this because on the door mat at their feet there's likely to be a Lib Dem leaflet, with lies on it. And when you say, "Well, Labour haven't told any lies", they've got headlines in mind from right wing papers which lie that they have; or from liberal papers quoting the IFS.

So if they're all at it, why wouldn't you go with the liar whose lies best match the lies you've been hearing for decades? Why wouldn't you vote for the liar who at least seems to enjoy lying, and does it with a bit of verve? And if you're an older voter, who's been encouraged to believe that "You can't say anything these days", why wouldn't you be attracted to the leader who says, "Well, you can: just look at me!"

Our media offer no help whatsoever in navigating this kind of stuff and at the moment seem positively dedicated to amplifying lies and promoting false equivalences. It's no surprise that there are lots of people who are very confused about who to listen to or what's real and very angry about the whole state of affairs. The causes of this situation are not hard to identify but because they implicate journalists, public intellectuals and their friends we get arrogant, entitled s__te like Green's "The people obviously like to be lied to!" It really boils my piss.
 
ks.234 said:
The Jewish Chronicle, the author or much of the accusations of institutional and widespread antisemitism within Labour, has been found by IPSO to be guilty of lying, yet there are many, including many on pfm, that have quite gleefully jumped on the AS bandwagon.
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Just as a point of logic, a newspaper breaking IPSO regulations with regard to an individual doesn't mean that there's no antisemitism among other Labour party members.
 
Marchbanks said:
I’m not sure where my neighbour, who told me ‘of course he lies, he’s got to if he is going to get Brexit sorted out!’ fits in these analyses.
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It's an interesting formulation, and it fits with the "People like to be lied to" trope and the assumption that people are basically thick. "*I* understand the real necessity of all this, but *they* may need a little help getting the whole thing over the line".
 
Joe said:
Some people on here seem to be making themselves ill with worry. What are they going to be like on Friday morning ?
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Once they've had their breakfast, they will be fine. Well, depending on if it was a full English or full European breakfast of course...
 
Seanm said:
On the door I've found that a common response to the idea that the Conservatives are liars is, "Yes but they all are!" It's difficult to refute this because on the door mat at their feet there's likely to be a Lib Dem leaflet, with lies on it. And when you say, "Well, Labour haven't told any lies", they've got headlines in mind from right wing papers which lie that they have; or from liberal papers quoting the IFS.

So if they're all at it, why wouldn't you go with the liar whose lies best match the lies you've been hearing for decades? Why wouldn't you vote for the liar who at least seems to enjoy lying, and does it with a bit of verve? And if you're an older voter, who's been encouraged to believe that "You can't say anything these days", why wouldn't you be attracted to the leader who says, "Well, you can: just look at me!"

Our media offer no help whatsoever in navigating this kind of stuff and at the moment seem positively dedicated to amplifying lies and promoting false equivalences. It's no surprise that there are lots of people who are very confused about who to listen to or what's real and very angry about the whole state of affairs. The causes of this situation are not hard to identify but because they implicate journalists, public intellectuals and their friends we get arrogant, entitled s__te like Green's "The people obviously like to be lied to!" It really boils my piss.
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I agree but the electorate aren't blank pages and after 10 years of right wing bias throughout the media, the demonising of minorities the scapegoating of immigrants, the poor the weak, the ghost of Goebbels has weaved his spell. We are f ucked, we are about to enter a very very unpleasant time.
 
Seanm said:
On the door I've found that a common response to the idea that the Conservatives are liars is, "Yes but they all are!"
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The idea that politicians say one thing while doing another, and lie, isn't unique to this election - it's been was being said when I first voted in the early 70s, and well before that.

I have to say, and this isn't directed at you, there seems to be an unstated acceptance that Labour are going to lose on Thursday and people are getting their excuses in early.
 
Stunsworth said:
The idea that politicians say one thing while doing another, and lie, isn't unique to this election - it's been was being said when I first voted in the early 70s, and well before that.

I have to say, and this isn't directed at you, there seems to be an unstated acceptance that Labour are going to lose on Thursday and people are getting their excuses in early.
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The point you appear to be missing isn't that Labour will lose it's that the New Conservatives will win with everything that entails.
 
Stunsworth said:
Just as a point of logic, a newspaper breaking IPSO regulations with regard to an individual doesn't mean that there's no antisemitism among other Labour party members.
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And neither did I say otherwise. But the accusation is not that antisemitism exists, it is that it is widespread and institutional within the Labour Party in particular and that Corbyn personally is an existential threat to all Jewishness.

As I’ve said before many times, if the is one antisemitism in the Labour Party that is one too many and they should be kicked out. I suspect there are many more who cannot tell the difference between criticising the State of Israel and criticising Jewishness as a whole and those people should either recognise their error or leave.

But let’s at least consider the evidence before we jump to any conclusions...and the IPSO ruling shows that at least some of that evidence is falsely based
 
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