Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+21)?

[Robert]

The dice have landed well.

Stonking win for the Brexit Party serving to focus the minds, Tories in crisis and now left with no choice but to elect someone petrified to do anything but deliver Brexit on/by Halloween.

Still possible the Tory infighting and prospect of a so called no deal (which doesn't really exist) will cause a few soft Tories to panic into supporting a confidence vote, triggering a general election.

I Like it.

The utter humiliation of Change UK is icing on the cake.

 

[maxflinn]

The utter humiliation of Change UK is icing on the cake.

They will be weaponised now, as regular TV 'pundits'.

 

[maxflinn]

"Corbyn later wrote to MPs: “It is clear that the deadlock in parliament can now only be broken by the issue going back to the people through a general election or a public vote. We are ready to support a public vote on any deal.”


Jack

As has been said on here countless times, Labour agreed during their last conference that if they fail to secure their preferred softer Brexit they will support asking the public to vote on whether they want a Tory hard Brexit, or to remain.

It's party policy, and now is the time to implement it, so they have.

The delicious irony is that if a GE is forced, which is very likely, then any vote not for Labour is a vote for said hard Tory Brexit, because splintering the anti-Brexit vote would be insane. It would guarantee a Tory majority as you can be sure they'll make a deal with Farage, who won't run any Brexit Party candidates. All remainers would have to vote for Labour and their 2nd referendum mandate, or the Tories win, and you get your nightmare.

So in such circs you hard remainer/Corbyn haters would have to vote for him

 

[Tony L]

So in such circs you hard remainer/Corbyn haters would have to vote for him

Not a hope in hell! I’ll be voting Green or LD depending on which stands the better chance. The odds are still very much on a hung parliament and I want the smaller progressives to have a deciding hand, not Corbyn, McCluskey etc.

 

[Stunsworth]

It's party policy, and now is the time to implement it, so they have.

It’s just a pity Corbyn had to wait until the day after getting a trouncing before he decided to support a vote - not that he’s said exactly what he thinks we should vote on. Poor tactics.

 

[wyjsar]

As has been said on here countless times, Labour agreed during their last conference that if they fail to secure their preferred softer Brexit they will support asking the public to vote on whether they want a Tory hard Brexit, or to remain.

It's party policy, and now is the time to implement it, so they have.

The delicious irony is that if a GE is forced, which is very likely, then any vote not for Labour is a vote for said hard Tory Brexit, because splintering the anti-Brexit vote would be insane. It would guarantee a Tory majority as you can be sure they'll make a deal with Farage, who won't run any Brexit Party candidates. All remainers would have to vote for Labour and their 2nd referendum mandate, or the Tories win, and you get your nightmare.

So in such circs you hard remainer/Corbyn haters would have to vote for him

The majority of voters will not vote on any tactical level let alone strategic. You credit the UK electorate with a bit too much intelligence. Most - let's say 60 - 70% - will vote for the party they've always voted for. Labour are still neither leave nor remain, there's no idea what a second referendum would be about (will remain be on it? will no deal be on it? will they still play Janus?).
I'm still rather flummoxed by the phrase "hard remain". Can you provide some detail about it? Tbh, all I can think about that would put someone in a "hard remain" category would be to not only remain in the EU but also to adopt the Euro. Is that it? Or am I hopelessly lost with the terminology.
Edit: I forgot to add my main point! Why the **** would anyone wanting to remain vote for Labour? They don't even know if they want to remain. Other parties do - and are on the ballot paper. Jeez.

 

[Tony L]

It’s just a pity Corbyn had to wait until the day after getting a trouncing before he decided to support a vote - not that he’s said exactly what he thinks we should vote on. Poor tactics.

Even earlier today he was doing his mealy-mouthed question evasion thing yet again. He is just hopelessly conflicted/compromised/duplicitous, and as such he can go to hell IMHO.

 

[maxflinn]

Not a hope in hell! I’ll be voting Green or LD depending on which stands the better chance. The odds are still very much on a hung parliament and I want the smaller progressives to have a deciding hand, not Corbyn, McCluskey etc.

Tony, a GE will essentially be another referendum, given it will be a no deal-seeking Tory leadership vs a 2nd referendum-offering Labour Party.

In such circumstances do you think the Tories would seek to do a deal with Farage, given he's ideologically identical to ERG tories?

 

[russel]

Widdicombe is on R4 demanding “a clean break” an “irreversible total break”. It’s sounds nice and simple.

Perhaps she was talking about a break from reality, having lost it a few times I suspect she rather likes it out there.

 

[wacko]

Even earlier today he was doing his mealy-mouthed question evasion thing yet again. He is just hopelessly conflicted/compromised/duplicitous, and as such he can go to hell IMHO.

But just possibly he is a team player and needs time to discuss and agree a change in policy ?

 

[maxflinn]

The majority of voters will not vote on any tactical level let alone strategic. You credit the UK electorate with a bit too much intelligence. Most - let's say 60 - 70% - will vote for the party they've always voted for. Labour are still neither leave nor remain, there's no idea what a second referendum would be about (will remain be on it? will no deal be on it? will they still play Janus?).
I'm still rather flummoxed by the phrase "hard remain". Can you provide some detail about it? Tbh, all I can think about that would put someone in a "hard remain" category would be to not only remain in the EU but also to adopt the Euro. Is that it? Or am I hopelessly lost with the terminology.
Edit: I forgot to add my main point! Why the **** would anyone wanting to remain vote for Labour? They don't even know if they want to remain. Other parties do - and are on the ballot paper. Jeez.

I would class someone as a hard remainer if they demonise everyone not also professing to be 100% committed to remaining.

 

[Romulus]

I don't know about hard remain, I just want to remain in EU. The European Elections have shown that the UK public want either to leave or to remain. This should be decided by the public and no I do not accept the 2016 Referendum as the public were ill informed and with incorrect facts and predictions.

 

[eisenach]

Oh, I hadn't thought of that one:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ghts-on-party-winning-peterborough-byelection

"Farage said the party’s next move would be to try to win the Cambridgeshire seat, a byelection prompted by the recall of the former Labour whip Fiona Onasanya.

“My suspicion is that we will not leave on October 31. If that happens it will be seen as the second great betrayal. That’s why what we are going to do is en masse, whether they want our help or not in getting ready, is en masse head for Peterborough and try our absolute damnedest to win that byelection,” he told the press conference in central London.

“We don’t have a great ground game, we have no data so we are starting off from a weak position. I am not going to predict victory, but I tell you what, we will run it damn close,” he said.

Voters will go to the polls on 6 June to replace Onasanya, who lost her seat after being jailed for perverting the course of justice. The seat has usually swung with the national trend between Labour and the Conservatives and 60% of the electorate voted to leave in the EU referendum."

Bu**er

 

[wyjsar]

I would class someone as a hard remainer if they demonise everyone not also professing to be 100% committed to remaining.

Not, then, really enough hard remainers around to even bother to coin the phrase on the basis you describe.

 

[maxflinn]

Not, then, really enough hard remainers around to even bother to coin the phrase on the basis you describe.

Don't follow pfm much then...

 

[gassor]

The dice have landed well.

Stonking win for the Brexit Party serving to focus the minds, Tories in crisis and now left with no choice but to elect someone petrified to do anything but deliver Brexit on/by Halloween.

Still possible the Tory infighting and prospect of a so called no deal (which doesn't really exist) will cause a few soft Tories to panic into supporting a confidence vote, triggering a general election.

I Like it.

The utter humiliation of Change UK is icing on the cake.

As a supporter of the Brexit party, what advice would you offer to Labour (who have had a wretched campaign)?

 

[jackbarron]

"Resigned".

I stay off Facebook specifically to avoid the spectacle of petulant right wing ex-Labour councillors and their cronies endlessly wetting themselves in semi-public. Why bring it on here?

I bought it on here because it made me laugh when I read it.

The ex-councillor isn't right wing. She's a very pissed off former Labour supporter. He's working class, a successful and sometimes very funny writer.

Jack

 

[gassor]

The delicious irony is that if a GE is forced, which is very likely, then any vote not for Labour is a vote for said hard Tory Brexit, because splintering the anti-Brexit vote would be insane. It would guarantee a Tory majority as you can be sure they'll make a deal with Farage, who won't run any Brexit Party candidates. All remainers would have to vote for Labour and their 2nd referendum mandate, or the Tories win, and you get your nightmare.

So in such circs you hard remainer/Corbyn haters would have to vote for him

Are the Tories likely to force a GE? Remember the old cliche about turkeys and Christmas.

But to move on to Ref2, are you saying that Labour will have taken up to a remain position by then and abandoned their manifesto pledge? Yippee! They could form an alliance with the Lib Dems and the Greens and do what they should have done years ago before the first EU ref. Sounds too sensible to me.

 

[Tony L]

Tony, a GE will essentially be another referendum, given it will be a no deal-seeking Tory leadership vs a 2nd referendum-offering Labour Party.

In such circumstances do you think the Tories would seek to do a deal with Farage, given he's ideologically identical to ERG tories?

As ever we need to assess the field and positions before making a tactical decision. I’ve said many times that if the UK does Brexit then I want the Tories (with or without Farage) in power to own it outright.

The last thing I want is that an inept Brexit-enabling bell-end like Corbyn gets thrust into the captain’s seat five minutes before hitting the iceberg and then taking the full blame for the economic disaster that is on its way. The Tories need to own the decline, the unemployment, the negative equity, the inflation, the riots etc etc. It is theirs and theirs alone. When this ship sinks they need to go down with it.

As such if Labour don’t start shouting from the rooftops to actually *stop* Brexit they are not a contender. They can sod right off. This idiotic Labour administration would actually set the cause of the left back a generation as the hard right would successfully stain them with the failure that is inevitable and coming down the pipe. The other progressives have a far stronger hand as they have made the correct argument all along.

 

[Seanm]

The majority of voters will not vote on any tactical level let alone strategic. You credit the UK electorate with a bit too much intelligence. Most - let's say 60 - 70% - will vote for the party they've always voted for. Labour are still neither leave nor remain, there's no idea what a second referendum would be about (will remain be on it? will no deal be on it? will they still play Janus?).
I'm still rather flummoxed by the phrase "hard remain". Can you provide some detail about it? Tbh, all I can think about that would put someone in a "hard remain" category would be to not only remain in the EU but also to adopt the Euro. Is that it? Or am I hopelessly lost with the terminology.
Edit: I forgot to add my main point! Why the **** would anyone wanting to remain vote for Labour? They don't even know if they want to remain. Other parties do - and are on the ballot paper. Jeez.

You don't think the results of the EU election suggest widespread tactical voting?

I take the "hard" in hard remain to refer not to anything substantive in relation to the nature of the UK's EU membership, but 1) to the prioritisation of remain over all other things 2) to the refusal to countenance any form of Brexit (after the referendum lots of people who identified as remainers nonetheless felt that a soft Brexit could be worked out, and wouldn't be the end of the world) 3) to a tendency to treat the issue of Brexit as if it embodied abstract, absolute moral principles (hard to pin down) and 4) to a general belligerence on the issue. I might have missed something.

As to why anyone wanting to remain would vote Labour, they offer the best chance of remaining: the new Tory leader will soon make no deal official policy, and Labour will have to push for the only alternative. And if you don't buy that, they are certainly punting a much softer form of Brexit than the Tories. Of course it's a fundamental characteristic of hard remainers that they refuse to recognise distinctions like that. And there is the question of moral purity and so on, which presumably will mean that some would be prepared to suffer no deal at the hands of the Tories rather than forgive Labour for all their accursed strategising over this matter of fundamental principle.