Power Cables. Are they overhyped?

[Julf]

Thanks for getting involved. As to where the noise might be coming from, I'd guess it's mainly from normal stuff in the house as the nearest neighbour is a few fields away. However the mains quality in general may be poor due to milking machines and similar on neighbouring farms (however on our 11kV to 240v transformer there is just 1 other property - although he does use a fair number of machine tools).

All that stuff is better dealt with with a suppressor capacitor instead of grounding schemes.

As to straight copper, I guess you mean copper strip, and may well be correct - I remember we used to use similar at the radio station, and it's often used for lightening conductors where I guess high frequencies (fast pulses) are likely to be an issue. Do you know of any good sources for such material - I probably need around 25m?

A think enough normal copper cable (2.5mm) would be the best solution.

 

[Errol]

So if you really are hearing differences, why is your equipment so poor it gets affected by the mains lead? hahahhahahaha

A list of some of the equipment some of my friends and I have heard differences with cable changes over the years.

VTL
Quad
Leak
Cambridge Audio
Naim (various)
Line Magnetic
Rogue
Ming Da
Audio Note
Perreaux
Plinius

Any duds there?

Mr ED

 

[Lee T]

Nice one haha. Spend large sums on mains cables and you are anything but insightful.

This I agree with.

 

[Lee T]

I have tried several better than std mains cables and the difference wasn't there. I don't believe those who do hear a difference.

I believe those who don't, we are all built differently, some are just superior beings with exemplary hearing acuity & memory for us it's quite an easy task to hear improvements in the sound from your equipment with better quality mains leads.
You can get a home syringe kit for about £8, it may help, but then again, superior beings are superior beings, so maybe not.

 

[Lee T]

No, my point was that the money spent on cables could be better spent on a better amp.

As I pointed out upstream, people are tempted to spend on cables because the cost per set of cables is relatively small (compared to a new amp or speakers). But if you tot up what people spend on cables over, say, 5 years, the total might well be the difference between a good amp and a better amp.

Buying after-market cables is a classic case of short-term thinking.

I doubt my £14 would buy you a better amp.

Your post is a little contradictory if you read it back.

Where is this myth arising from regarding spending over a 5 year period on mains leads, who does this, purchased my 2 leads many years ago, made them up myself from Belden cable an iec & plug, 5 years spending on mains leads??

I look at it as improving on what you have rather than spending hundreds for a similar improvement, amp wise.

 

[mattgbell]

Your post is a little contradictory if you read it back.

Please point out what was contradictory: otherwise, shut up.

Where is this myth arising from regarding spending over a 5 year period on mains leads, who does this, purchased my 2 leads many years ago, made them up myself from Belden cable an iec & plug, 5 years spending on mains leads??

If you can't tell the difference between a generalisation (some people do spend money regularly on cables) and your own case (I bought a bit of Belden), then you really do need to go back to school.

I look at it as improving on what you have rather than spending hundreds for a similar improvement, amp wise.

Your amp shouldn't need the 'improvement'. If it does, it's a shit amp.

 

[BilliumB]

All that stuff is better dealt with with a suppressor capacitor instead of grounding schemes.

Hi Julf - as mentioned in an earlier response I already make use of a very capable noise filter (MIT Z Powerbar), but wonder what extra noise that adds to the 'earth' line at the kit.

Also, would such a suppressor capacitor deal with noise on the ground line?

A think enough normal copper cable (2.5mm) would be the best solution.

You may well be correct - what sort of impedance is such a cable likely to present to higher noise frequencies? Have you done any experimentation that might confirm this recommendation? I really am trying to understand if doing something more elaborate might provide a worthwhile return.

By the way, I think the normal ground wire in typical 2.5mm T&E cable used for a ring main is only 1.5mm (in fact even 4mm T&E that many would use for a dedicated HiFi radial supply incorporates only a 1.5mm ground wire also).

Cheers. Bill

 

[misterdog]

If we get this irate about the cable bringing in the last 300mm. of 230V AC coming in to our systems then we should 100 times more fractious about the C. 2V of our precious audio signal......

It makes FA difference.

If your mains is crap, a fancy lead will not make make a hapeth of difference.

If you feel the need for a fancy mains lead.

You will need a13Amp plug on the end.

Will you choose..................................................................

Gold ?

Silver ?

Rhodium ?

Tellarium Copper ?

For the pins, will you be able to hear a difference ?

Which type of fuse will you use in the afforementioned plug.

Will you allow this plug/fuse/cable to reach ambient temperature before making a subjective anal ysis (sic)??

 

[BE718]

A list of some of the equipment some of my friends and I have heard differences with cable changes over the years.

VTL
Quad
Leak
Cambridge Audio
Naim (various)
Line Magnetic
Rogue
Ming Da
Audio Note
Perreaux
Plinius

Any duds there?

Mr ED

I was being facetious to highlight the fact that your analysis of the alleged improvement is faulty. However it may well be true that some of that equipment is deficient.

 

[BE718]

Chances are that is would be simpler and more effective to put filters on the mains at the point where it enters your equipment.

You can buy these quite cheaply and quickly from CPC / Maplin / etc. So it is easy to give it a try. Once done you can spend the time and money on more music.

This.

Billium, otherwise I think you are searching to solve a problem that may not / probably does not exist.

Enjoy the music instead of suffering audiophile nervosa

 

[BE718]

Hi Julf - as mentioned in an earlier response I already make use of a very capable noise filter (MIT Z Powerbar), but wonder what extra noise that adds to the 'earth' line at the kit.

Also, would such a suppressor capacitor deal with noise on the ground line?



ll

If you are that concerned you need to go balanced and double insulated to get the earth connection out of the signal chain.

Your earth will have noise currents on it.

Btw you can get filters from RS with low value low leakage or no Y capacitors.

 

[Errol]

However it may well be true that some of that equipment is deficient.

Or not.

 

[BE718]

Or not.

Then it really is down to your non objective assessments.

 

[Errol]

Then it really is down to your subjective assessments.

Of course.

 

[Lee T]

A list of some of the equipment some of my friends and I have heard differences with cable changes over the years.

VTL
Quad
Leak
Cambridge Audio
Naim (various)
Line Magnetic
Rogue
Ming Da
Audio Note
Perreaux
Plinius

Any duds there?

Mr ED

Rega always produce excellent products, what is interesting though is they never measure well in reviews when compared to the "competition" , neither do Naim, yet both sound superb, the newer Naim stuff have far better measurements than the old olive stuff, yet many prefer the olive sound.

 

[Lee T]

Please point out what was contradictory: otherwise, shut up.



If you can't tell the difference between a generalisation (some people do spend money regularly on cables) and your own case (I bought a bit of Belden), then you really do need to go back to school.


Your amp shouldn't need the 'improvement'. If it does, it's a shit amp.

Your a pleasant chap

Read the post back, you will see the contradiction.

Where does the generalisation come from that people spend regularly on cables, how often is regularly & what sort of prices do you mean, a 5 year period is what you mention, just wondered where this info came from as i'm yet to meet anyone who does this.

Make sure to read the post clearly too, I didn't state the amp needed improving, I stated I preferred to get the best out of what is there in the first place, replacing the mains lead is not improving the amp, keep up.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Hi Jim, you may well be right but as I'm planning to install a radial I don't want to waste the opportunity if I can improve things.

...

However I was wondering if this filter will be adding to the noise on the earth line? If so, even more reason to look a earth impedance?!

Cheers. Bill

I think you are looking at this in a misleading way. (pun alert)

What matters to the *equipment* is the relative voltages and currents on the mains wires *as they enter the box*. i.e. you amplifier, say, doesn't care what is happening in terms of:

A) if the 'earth' it sees is true electrostatic zero.

or

B) what potentials and currents occur at some point further from it that the point where the mains wires enter its box.

So the order of priorities are really likely to be

A) buy and use good kit that tends to reject mains crap.

B) use something like a good filters mains distribution board for your hifi so they all get fed a cleaned mains.

C) add a filter in the lead near to a box (amp, or whatever) fairly near to it.

if you want to use fancy cables, fair enough. But in general the above are far more likely to deal with any problems. So an engineer would advise you to focus on them first.

Also, if the problem is RFI you will hear quite distinct effects like crackles or clicks or other patterned noises. If the mains waveform is lousy you may hear buzz or hum. Simply wondering "could this sound better?" isn't a diagnostic for RFI.

And if you're serious about chasing RFI then you really need a scope and use it appropriately. These days a decent USB ADC and some scope/specan software can do the job for audio. This will avoid you trying to fix what ain't broke.

 

[Julf]

Hi Julf - as mentioned in an earlier response I already make use of a very capable noise filter (MIT Z Powerbar), but wonder what extra noise that adds to the 'earth' line at the kit.

Also, would such a suppressor capacitor deal with noise on the ground line?

I think Jim addressed this already, but it is really important to remember the difference between common mode noise and differential-mode noise.

Noise on the ground line isn't usually an issue, what matters is the noise at the amp inputs.

You may well be correct - what sort of impedance is such a cable likely to present to higher noise frequencies?

Totally depends on the frequency. Basically the ground wire starts acting as an antenna, and impedance depends on resonance and the wavelength of the noise signal.

Have you done any experimentation that might confirm this recommendation? I really am trying to understand if doing something more elaborate might provide a worthwhile return.

Pretty much any ham radio antenna is a working experiment in this area.

By the way, I think the normal ground wire in typical 2.5mm T&E cable used for a ring main is only 1.5mm (in fact even 4mm T&E that many would use for a dedicated HiFi radial supply incorporates only a 1.5mm ground wire also).

1.5 mm is more than enough in any case - the difference in impedance is not significant unless we are talking about really long runs (and very powerful noise sources).

 

[BE718]

Rega always produce excellent products, what is interesting though is they never measure well in reviews when compared to the "competition" , neither do Naim, yet both sound superb, the newer Naim stuff have far better measurements than the old olive stuff, yet many prefer the olive sound.

Off topic but the old naim "sound" polarises people. It is not universally liked.

The fact that it has a "sound" is probably a cause for concern. BTW I have owned Naim kit a long time ago from a nait thru to 102/180.

I moved on due to better sound found elsewhere and being disillusioned with the daft tiny incremental, expensive and cynical upgrade syndrome; add a psu change the pre amp, oh now the power amp, add more PSUs........

There could well be a no doubt debateable correlation to its measurements.

 

[whatsnext]

Off topic but the old naim "sound" polarises people. It is not universally liked.

The fact that it has a "sound" is probably a cause for concern. BTW I have owned Naim kit a long time ago from a nait thru to 102/180.

I moved on due to better sound found elsewhere and being disillusioned with the daft tiny incremental, expensive and cynical upgrade syndrome; add a psu change the pre amp, oh now the power amp, add more PSUs........

I was polarised within seconds - vile noise.