Trump Part 7
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vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
just to be clear, i am not defending shady, backroom behaviour in any way. my point is that we have more important things to fight that have far-reaching consequences for humanity, not just the american people. also, having lived through what reagan (and even bill clinton) got away with, i have little faith that a system of legal kafkaism and political obfuscation will let anything stick on the president, especially now that he has shown an ability to come across as presidential.
the democratic party is playing the man, not the ball. it could be a successful tactic, but i really doubt it. regardless, i see pence as potentially more dangerous than trump, who is still not really supported by the GOP. it also means playing the sort of nasty political games of obstructionism that we were all outraged by for the past 6 years.
vuk.
droodzilla
pfm Member
Yes, that's another approach: report the tweets but "do an FT" and subject them to ruthless scrutiny and rigorous fact checking.
My concern is that many news outlets neither ignore Trump's tweets nor scrutinise them rigorously. Further, this lack of critical thinking bleeds into other reports about Trump: witness the amount of ink spilled over whether Trump's address to Congress represented a more "presidential" approach. The answer, as any fule kno, is "No!".
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
Because the whole reason he was asked that question was because of the context in which the hearings were taking place which in turn makes his lie deeply troubling.
Of course if the boot was on the other foot and the Saudis had interfered to get President Clinton elected there was a systematic pattern of her cabinet and campaign officials not only meeting with Saudi officials but lying about it then the Trump apologists would all be screaming blue murder (as they should).
Such a blatant straw man is unworthy of you, Vuk.
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
matthew.
in this world of high-tech state intelligence, corporate "news", pervasive advertizing, political lobying and social media propagation of "ideas", how do we even begin to assess causality and what exactly is the evidence for russian interference? even if there was interference, is it different from german or american or british interference in the affairs of foreign nations? can we count economic threats by the stock market classes and large banks?
i don't like any of this and am not looking to defend it. obviously there is an important principle here, but when it is being violated all over the place, simply picking the russians can be taken as an expression of irrational hate.
finally, as always, i prefer to get all worked up about big systemic problems, rather than symptoms -- in the spirit of thoreau: "there are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root" -- though i may not have a very good axe a lot of the time.
vuk.
PsB
Citizen of Nowhere™
The tweets coming out of the president of the US are unbelievable in so many ways: both the content and the fact that the POTUS thinks this is a valid use of his time and influence.
I am convinced he originally ran just as a way to develop his brand. I am also convinced he is deeply in hock to various financial interests, which is why he has not released his tax returns, and that he has been funded at various occasions in the last 10 years partly by Russian money or Kazakh money from well established oligarchs. The Kremlin has him by the short and curlies.
Anyway, far from draining the swamp he is making it deeper and murkier. His executive orders repealing many of the constraints placed on the energy industry or Wall Street under Obama's administration show us what kind of corrupt and corrupting influence he is going to be.
I am convinced he originally ran just as a way to develop his brand. I am also convinced he is deeply in hock to various financial interests, which is why he has not released his tax returns, and that he has been funded at various occasions in the last 10 years partly by Russian money or Kazakh money from well established oligarchs. The Kremlin has him by the short and curlies.
Anyway, far from draining the swamp he is making it deeper and murkier. His executive orders repealing many of the constraints placed on the energy industry or Wall Street under Obama's administration show us what kind of corrupt and corrupting influence he is going to be.
Tony L
Administrator
To my eyes you go to great lengths to defend Putin and the whole Russian gangster oligarch culture. I have no idea why you do this, but it is very evident in what you post here. I guess Putin's financing of RT is money well spent if it so convinces people like you, Max etc!
Anyway, would appear there is a chance Trump and maybe others in his administration are involved in highly dodgy money-laundering activities for various Russian gangsters and oligarchs. If it transpires that the President of the USA can't publish his accounts due to being involved in such dodgy deals or is beholden to such people surely that is news? One would hope it should be enough 'news' to topple the administration. Time will tell.
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
i agree entirely.
there is something obviously suspect in him not releasing the tax returns, but how can you be convinced of exactly what the reason is? my bet would be on romney-like, but probably worse, barely-legal tax evasion.
as for the motives behind his presidential run, i don't know how you can be sure about his motives when it is so difficult to even understand one's own. just to play along, however, this little piece by bill moyers suggests something cynically planned quite some time ago and for the purpose of actually running for the presidency:
vuk.
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matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
There is plenty of evidence, certainly a lot more evidence for this than for many things we routinely believe about, say, US foreign policy. If there were far less evidence of, say, Saudi influence there would already be a three hour video of Chomsky droning on about it on YouTube.
Surely the most obvious comparison would be the US intervention in Chile in the 70s? Which was equally as appalling as the Russian interference in the US.
I would say three things. Firstly Putin's Russia is pretty much a gangster state and should be opposed. Secondly if we replace Russia with Israel and irrational hate with anti-semitism in that sentence it's just as annoying. Thirdly this is not really about Russia but about America.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
Because whatever is in the tax returns has to at least an order of magnitude greater than the political damage caused by not releasing them and simply not paying any taxes as we alreadty know he didn't from the leak of his NY tax returns.
Also we do kind of know what the issue is because of all the other circumstantial evidence surrounding his ties with the Russian state, oligarchs an ganstgers. As Frum likes to say there are plenty of secrets about Trump but no real mystery and the whole this is pretty much as it says on the tin.
droodzilla
pfm Member
But Sean Spicer more or less confirmed that a central element of Trump's communication strategy is to bypass the mainstream media ("fake news") and speak directly to his supporters. Or, from our perspective, Trump's aim is to spread obfuscation and lies so that if/when mainstream news sources find evidence of wrongdoing on his part, it struggles to gain traction. Either way, Trump will continue to tweet bullshit.
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
that is not what i am doing at all. my actual position on the oligarchs is that the bulk of their assets should be re-appropriated by the people. i feel the same way about the wealth most western corporations have essentially stolen from various states.
what i am doing is questioning the priorities and ideologies that are revealed when, amidst all the nasty military and corporate actors in the world and the dangerous things trump is doing (undermining education, science, environmentalism, financial regulation, social harmony, etc.), the top story is a tabloid-style, populist sensationalizing of some dodgy dealings in a world that is rife with them. as a critic of brexit tactics, surely you can sympathize with diversionary politics and hate-mongering.
it seems to me that there is a sentiment to get rid of trump at any cost and i get that. if we could do it and avoid something equally bad, i would be all out for that. instead, i see more opportunity in using him and his arrogant, narcissistic "openness" to expose core political problems that are institutional and attack those -- perhaps not now, but when he and the republicans are overthrown in 4 years. i may be wrong, but that's my pragmatic take.
vuk.
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
how about something more recent? the US intervention in the ukraine which ls clearly more blatant than anything we have evidence for right now.
that said, i think all 3 of these events are very different. and i don't see much use in arguing over the minutiae of which regime change tactics are worse -- i would like to think we would agree that assassinations, economic snactions and military invasions are a lot worse than dissemination of propaganda. one thing that is clear, however, is that what happened in chile, to this point (we don't yet know the full trumpain aftermath), resulted in the worst aftermath by far.
back to the overarching point: i am against meddling altogether. as i keep repeating, i believe in complete state transparency, no secrecy at all. i also do agree that russia is a gangster state, but so are israel and saudi arabia. the difference is that the public accept the latter two, so there is no need for backroom deals -- it is all out in the open and chomsky does give two hour talks about truths like that.
vuk.
DonQuixote99
pfm Member
droodzilla
pfm Member
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
yes, you have exposed me. i fail to think critically about anything and simply engage in behavioral clichés, as defined by the wisdom pop psychology.
vuk.
DonQuixote99
pfm Member
It is very hard to get traction against the Trumpists in the media with long-winded explainers about how wrong their policies are. This has always been true in general and will not change.
You crack things open with clear black-and-white transgressions. That's what Sessions lying under oath is.
You have to hit them with the stick you can connect with, that will break through their defenses.
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
as i said, it is a tactic that could work. setting aside my cynicism, assuming we do get rid of him, how do you see a pence presidency playing out? how will the course change and which of the current policy proposals will be revoked? i imagine only the ones that, on first glance, appear socialistic. the whole regulatory and education debacle will go on. i think there is a deep down fallacy/hope of a government overthrow. that's not what will happen, instead just a change of figurehead -- unless, of course, people take to the streets and all that.
vuk.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
As has been said several times before, getting rid of Trump isn't sufficient. Bannon has to go, probably first, then Trump. Ideally, Pence is so damaged by the associations that he is a lame duck, or better still, he gets dragged down by the others and goes too. The triumvirate at the top has to be completely removed without trace.
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