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Preamplifier necessity?

DANOFDANGER said:
Yes i agree it being a subjective improvement, others may use the same preamp and dislike the tonal change, perhaps because of taste or poorer system integration.
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What tonal change?

Not all changes are tonal.

When you have a pre with active gain - in the case of mine, up to 8 wpc, the power amp "hits the ground running," so to speak with a stronger signal. This is what my subjective experience seems to be telling me.

JohnW also suggested that an (active) pre acted as a buffer or filter for certain types of noise/distortion from the DAC.
 
hifinutt said:
sense of space , increased sense of realism , spooky realism in fact
if you stick a ref 5 in your system you will soon hear what a good pre amp can do . on occasions I have to do with just a dac [ 3-4k dac inc batt supply] and its rather detailed and digital and fatiguing. stick a puresound L10 in front and whao .....up you go dancing and the musicality just keeps me up half the night
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Have you ever heard an aphex aural exciter? It has an even more dramatic effect.
 
Steven Toy said:
What tonal change?

Not all changes are tonal.

When you have a pre with active gain - in the case of mine, up to 8 wpc, the power amp "hits the ground running," so to speak with a stronger signal. This is what my subjective experience seems to be telling me.
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I was using the description "tonal" universally for any type of change.
Steven Toy said:
JohnW also suggested that an (active) pre acted as a buffer or filter for certain types of noise/distortion from the DAC.
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Yes thats what i said and i agree the potential possibility of such things happening, but hey if you can prevent it in a dedicated preamp you can do it in the dacs pre stage too.
 
Steven Toy said:
What tonal change?

Not all changes are tonal.

When you have a pre with active gain - in the case of mine, up to 8 wpc, the power amp "hits the ground running," so to speak with a stronger signal. This is what my subjective experience seems to be telling me.

JohnW also suggested that an (active) pre acted as a buffer or filter for certain types of noise/distortion from the DAC.
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There is zero technical merit in that I'm afraid...

A passive can also act as a filter for HF noise etc... just use a fairly high resistance pot and a decent length of cable between it and the power amp!
The output resistance of the pot in conjunction with the capacitance of the cable will form a first order low pass filter.
 
Julf said:
How would a preamp improve sound quality?
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How would a power amp improve sound quality?

Powering a speaker from a DAC would be "more transparent" because you "removed a stage of distortion" ... could it be worse in some ways though? Yes. (Some have tried this with the Chord Hugo, and got some decent volume out of it.)

Now, your conclusion might be right, it might not. That depends on more specific factors. My point is actually about the implication that removing a stage is purely good by definition. I don't think it's a safe argument.
 
darrenyeats said:
How would a power amp improve sound quality?

Powering a speaker from a DAC would be "more transparent" ... could it be worse in some other ways though? Yes. (Some have tried this with the Chord Hugo.)

Now, your conclusion might be right, it might not. That depends on more specific factors. My point is actually about your implication that removing a stage is purely good by definition.
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You can't do without a power amp! If the hugo has enough output to drive speakers then it has a power amp no matter what it says on the unit....
 
Yet it is possible a better power amp than the one in the Hugo could provide better sound in SOME aspect if added afterward, assuming the same output level, right?
 
Helmut said:
You need a pre-amp for colouration :D
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It's also quite handy if your power amp has no volume control and you like to be able to conveniently switch between 2 turntables, a CD player, a cassette deck, a microcassette deck, a tuner and the front channel outputs of an A/V processor...;)
 
I’m currently using a pre-amp but am very open to the idea of removing it from the chain, so long as I get the sound I want. The sound I want is what many in the yes pre-amp camp state: a sense of drive, dynamics and realism. I have only tried my very basic Beresford DAC where the pre section is very much an after thought so am curious to try the likes of the Benchmark DAC2, NAD M51, W4S, Young DSD, Mytek 192 etc….which I imagine have put considerably more effort in to implementing the volume.

I also think there is a lot to be said for the impendence argument, forums can always be a tough place to gauge an honest opinion as not only do you have to consider synergy in individual cases but also personal preference and perhaps the biggest challenge is so my hearsay presented as first hand experience. With that in mind can anyone recommend a DAC / Pre they would specifically recommend to pair with Event Opal actives which would give me the sense of drive and realism I’m looking for while being an obvious match from a specification point of view?
 
Beobloke said:
It's also quite handy if your power amp has no volume control and you like to be able to conveniently switch between 2 turntables, a CD player, a cassette deck, a microcassette deck, a tuner and the front channel outputs of an A/V processor...;)
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Exactly.

You could add the analogue outputs of a telly to that list.

As for coloration, most speakers have that in abundance.
 
Beobloke said:
It's also quite handy if your power amp has no volume control and you like to be able to conveniently switch between 2 turntables, a CD player, a cassette deck, a microcassette deck, a tuner and the front channel outputs of an A/V processor...;)
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There's no reason at all why this needs to be active of course!
 
Beobloke said:
It's also quite handy if your power amp has no volume control and you like to be able to conveniently switch between 2 turntables, a CD player, a cassette deck, a microcassette deck, a tuner and the front channel outputs of an A/V processor...;)
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As I mentioned in post 38, what really IS the alternative if you have many sources (including, as above post, a TV line out)? My monoblocs do have pot's, though they have a limited range; these are purely to equalise pre.-out levels to taste.

Unless I've lost the plot, I can only see people with one source and a power amp. with effective pot's being able to live without a pre. (or DAC substitute).
 
Mike Reed said:
As I mentioned in post 38, what really IS the alternative if you have many sources (including, as above post, a TV line out)? My monoblocs do have pot's, though they have a limited range; these are purely to equalise pre.-out levels to taste.

Unless I've lost the plot, I can only see people with one source and a power amp. with effective pot's being able to live without a pre. (or DAC substitute).
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As I said in the post above yours a "pre amp" can have full functions and still be passive! It just needs a source selector switch before the pot or switched attenuator. "Tape out" can be just an output taken from before the vol pot. This would of course be an unbuffered tape out but then they often are anyway!
 
Mike Reed said:
As I mentioned in post 38, what really IS the alternative if you have many sources (including, as above post, a TV line out)? My monoblocs do have pot's, though they have a limited range; these are purely to equalise pre.-out levels to taste.

Unless I've lost the plot, I can only see people with one source and a power amp. with effective pot's being able to live without a pre. (or DAC substitute).
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I have used a DAC / Digital pre for many years. Initially an Audio Synthesis Dax Decade and now a Young DSD.

I have multiple digital sources (CD when connected, Squeezebox Touch and TV when connected). I also use a turntable + phono stage through an ADC into the DAC. The digital side sounded better when the preamp was removed and the turntable sounded just as good, with the pre or without the pre (but using the ADC) in circuit. So I sold the preamp.
 
Mike Reed said:
As I mentioned in post 38, what really IS the alternative if you have many sources (including, as above post, a TV line out)? My monoblocs do have pot's, though they have a limited range; these are purely to equalise pre.-out levels to taste.

Unless I've lost the plot, I can only see people with one source and a power amp. with effective pot's being able to live without a pre. (or DAC substitute).
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A TVC like this one http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/am_rs_e.html

However I'd rather call it a control unit rather than a preamplifier and nish!I don't like a silver finish!

Cheers,

DV
 
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