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When is "Classic" audio gear not "Classic"?

Yank said:
What's the oldest turntable, tonearm, and cartridge that will play 33.3 RPM stereo LP records to a reasonably modern standard?
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1958 was the birth of the stereo LP and a lot of the better kit of that period is superb, e.g. Garrard 301, Thorens TD-124 or EMT 930 turntables kitted out with the best of the early stereo arms and carts, e.g. Ortofon RM309 arm / SPU cart, SME 3009 or 3012, Decca FFSS arm & cart, EMT's own arm & cart. Lots of this kit remains a benchmark today, some is still even in production in some variation or revision (SPUs, SMEs, Deccas etc)!
 
paskinn said:
Without wanting to sound too pompous, the key element in classics is 'integrity.' Items tend to become 'classics' because they personify the most desirable way to achieve a task...thus an 'E' type Jaguar goes fast, but with a breath-taking elegance and style.
Indeed, a key criteria for a Classic is that you find it hard to imagine it being different....they are, as they are.
Once you start modding or 'improving' an item, it's integrity gets compromised....it is no longer the same object. It might be 'better' or 'worse'...but it will certainly not be the same. For me, authenticity is everything...otherwise, just buy something more suitable for your needs.
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Then I would equate functional repairs and reversible modifications to classic gear to putting radial tires on that E Jag, and installing seat belts if they weren't originally fitted.
 
Fudgemaster said:
To avoid a thread hijack, I'm starting this one. I've had some bits of hifi equipment for a few years, the oldest being my Planar 3/R200/Dynavector 10x4, all early 1980s. The drive belt is now a white one, and I've changed the bearing ball for a ceramic ball. Otherwise, the deck is as I bought it.
Now, following a comment in another thread, I'm wondering if changing the motor will detract from it's "originality" enough to deter future buyers, or not? I appreciate that mechanicals wear out over the years, but my deck hasn't had a huge amount of use, so there's probably quite a bit of life left in the motor and arm bearings. I could send the arm to be serviced, to check the state of it. But a Rega motor replacement is worth doing, for the improvement it gives.
Obviously the cartridge will deteriorate, may be too far gone already, but it's a bit too expensive to service it, for me, anyway. I'm beginning to wish I'd still got the spare headshell - talk about short-sighted.
So, the question is, is it ok to improve your "classic", so that it sounds better to you, or leave it alone while it's still working well?
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Whoops sorry that'll have been me :)
It's an approved Rega upgrade sold by them, and the earlier non 24v version was actually fitted standard on the last of the Planar 3s. So in my view, that makes it still original.
However, the motor fixes via a sticky pad and so you can revert to the original within about 10 minutes.

I've just bought a Planar 25 plinth and intend bashing several holes in it tomorrow to mount a non Rega arm, but then I didn't buy it for it's resale value and it was relatively cheap.
I always wanted to do this on my old P9 but with that deck I very definitely had to consider it's resale value, so resisted :)

If you buy a hi-fi component with an eye to resale value then keep it original, or only perform 100% reversible mods. Otherwise it's madness to assume that some products can't be improved over the years and if you deny yourself these changes, you forgo the best performance.
 
paskinn said:
Without wanting to sound too pompous, the key element in classics is 'integrity.' Items tend to become 'classics' because they personify the most desirable way to achieve a task...thus an 'E' type Jaguar goes fast, but with a breath-taking elegance and style.
Indeed, a key criteria for a Classic is that you find it hard to imagine it being different....they are, as they are.
Once you start modding or 'improving' an item, it's integrity gets compromised....it is no longer the same object. It might be 'better' or 'worse'...but it will certainly not be the same. For me, authenticity is everything...otherwise, just buy something more suitable for your needs.
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The Jag goes fast, but handles like a barge and braking is not always there when you need it. If it has seatbelts they are only good for keeping the corpse close enough to the wreck to make it easy to find. That's why car analogies fall apart in this case, as a classic TT, for example, like a 301, 401 or TD124 can still play on the big kids' climbing frame, without modification.

By the way, I'd still own an E-Type if I could. Someone parks a lovely white drop-head near my kids' school, but it's clearly a bit of a resto-mod, as the big red brake calipers stand out a bit behind the gorgeous wire-spoke wheels.
 
JayM481 said:
The Jag goes fast, but handles like a barge and braking is not always there when you need it. If it has seatbelts they are only good for keeping the corpse close enough to the wreck to make it easy to find. That's why car analogies fall apart in this case, as a classic TT, for example, like a 301, 401 or TD124 can still play on the big kids' climbing frame, without modification.

By the way, I'd still own an E-Type if I could. Someone parks a lovely white drop-head near my kids' school, but it's clearly a bit of a resto-mod, as the big red brake calipers stand out a bit behind the gorgeous wire-spoke wheels.
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I don't think that 'classic' entails something being comparable with later products, does it? A Ford Escort might be a more satisfactory vehicle than an 'E' type, in purely transport terms, but so what.....A 1940 Rolex is hopelessly less accurate than a £5 digital watch, but again, so what.
As for that man with red brake calipers on an E type. He should be arrested on the spot for major crimes against taste. The E type should be placed in my safe keeping.
 
There's been a lot more progress in cars than in TTs or amps in 40+ years.

I have run a couple of classic cars. I don't go with the "original" school except for the real collectors' items. "Oh yes, mine is the '63 with the original chocolate fireguard braking system, which was revised in '64 of course, following the Great Road Disaster of '63. No, I prefer to keep it original. That's the way it should be. You just have to think ahead a bit, post in your requirements for braking. I wouldn't dream of modifying it."

I wouldn't want to modify a collector piece in an irreversible fashion, but improvements to running gear are fine. An old car can still perform with modern stuff. The best example I have is a Lotus 7 series 2 with a blown pre-XF Lotus twink engine. Rebuild cost £5k+, for what? 125bhp, 20 mpg, and more time in the garage than on the road. Great. The owner, sensibly, made an engine cradle to hold a Honda Fireblade engine and gearbox, and arranged for it to fit the original mounts. He now has about 140-150 bhp, 6 speed box, an engine that revs to 10k+ and a lighter, better handling car. It still looks great but it leaves the original car for dead. If he ever wants to go back (why?) he unbolts the cradle and rebuilds the twink. Meanwhile he's too busy thrashing it around racetracks to be fiddling with a wobbly pair of old worn-out Webers.
 
stevec67 said:
The best example I have is a Lotus 7 series 2 with a blown pre-XF Lotus twink engine. Rebuild cost £5k+, for what? 125bhp, 20 mpg, and more time in the garage than on the road. Great. The owner, sensibly, made an engine cradle to hold a Honda Fireblade engine and gearbox, and arranged for it to fit the original mounts. He now has about 140-150 bhp, 6 speed box, an engine that revs to 10k+ and a lighter, better handling car. It still looks great but it leaves the original car for dead. If he ever wants to go back (why?) he unbolts the cradle and rebuilds the twink. Meanwhile he's too busy thrashing it around racetracks to be fiddling with a wobbly pair of old worn-out Webers.
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Seems a shame to do this to a 60's Seven with original Lotus power when you could achieve the same result with a common or garden Caterham of indeterminate age for about 1/5th the value and none of the loss of heritage. Or are we arguing about the same thing?
 
davidsrsb said:
What about classic loudspeakers? Tweeters, especially, fail and original parts are unobtainable
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Depends on the type. The real classic stuff tends to have a spare parts market around it or even new replacements still available from the original manufacturer, e.g. you can still get new cones and compression drivers for even very old Tannoys, Klipsch etc. Quad ESLs can be kept running, and with the new Falcon units, LS3/5As and their variants too. Some others, e.g. ARs, Gales, Snells etc can be refoamed, though there are some which you'd have to find a donor pair to keep running. Speakers are on the whole very simple things using 100+ year old technology, they tend to be very reliable unless abused or poorly stored IME. Expect to recap the crossovers, but that's an easy enough job.
 
The Quad ESL 57 is a good example. Quad themselves stopped repairing these long ago. The specialist repairers are using a different plastic sheet to the original, so strictly speaking they are not "original", although the do adhere to the spirit
 
davidsrsb said:
The Quad ESL 57 is a good example. Quad themselves stopped repairing these long ago. The specialist repairers are using a different plastic sheet to the original, so strictly speaking they are not "original", although the do adhere to the spirit
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Sadly, to my ears, the recent 'overhaul' services seem to result in a somewhat different sound to the original.
Although, with originals now at least forty years old, I'm not sure if it is even possible to recapture the sound of a 1960s-70s pair. It could be that we no longer reliably know what they really sounded like . I first heard a pair in the early 60s....you can't rely on accurate memory of a sound over 50 years. . Although I have a replica pair of 1930s speakers that I know sound just like the original....because I have had both, side by side, complete with original 1930s field-coil drivers. But it's hard work and a lot of research.
I don't believe speaker design has made much real progress in decades. Actually, until digital, audio was stalled in a series of design ruts.
And I don't like digital very much! Not because of sound quality, but because it is busy turning lovely music into a debased commodity. Once something is everywhere, it has little value, and is little appreciated.
 
paskinn said:
Sadly, to my ears, the recent 'overhaul' services seem to result in a somewhat different sound to the original.
Although, with originals now at least forty years old, I'm not sure if it is even possible to recapture the sound of a 1960s-70s pair. It could be that we no longer reliably know what they really sounded like . I first heard a pair in the early 60s....you can't rely on accurate memory of a sound over 50 years. . Although I have a replica pair of 1930s speakers that I know sound just like the original....because I have had both, side by side, complete with original 1930s field-coil drivers. But it's hard work and a lot of research.
I don't believe speaker design has made much real progress in decades. Actually, until digital, audio was stalled in a series of design ruts.
And I don't like digital very much! Not because of sound quality, but because it is busy turning lovely music into a debased commodity. Once something is everywhere, it has little value, and is little appreciated.
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Good post.

Re Quads, there are at least some comprehensive bench tests done on reasonably young originals so we have a technical benchmark of sorts. We also know the film type and coating formulation so getting them back to original standards is certainly do-able. Takes time and effort though, and it almost certainly wouldn't be profitable.

There's a chap in the US I think named Sheldon Stokes with a good rep for sticking to original recipe refurbs. Never tried him though. He freely states that it's barely a business, more a labour of love hobby.
 
Right, lads. A motor change next, keep the old one to sell with the deck, then have a good think about whether or not to put the replacement A/S belt in (the arm moves gently outwards, with zero counterbalance weight, i.e. is horizontal), so no urgency; new cartridge, then that's it. It's like part of the family - 30 years old next month. Oh, I might get the arm serviced by j7.
Personally, I tend to agree that replacing consumables, i.e. bearings, capacitors, and items which have a finite life, should not affect the quality if the item concerned, but when items such as boards, arms, or non-standard items are used to replace original items, then it's a minefield.
But as with everything else, it's only worth what someone is prepared to pay, no matter how much you may think it's better than original.
A big Ta to all contributors.
 
Fudgemaster said:
Right, lads. A motor change next, keep the old one to sell with the deck, then have a good think about whether or not to put the replacement A/S belt in (the arm moves gently outwards, with zero counterbalance weight, i.e. is horizontal), so no urgency; new cartridge, then that's it. It's like part of the family - 30 years old next month. Oh, I might get the arm serviced by j7.
Personally, I tend to agree that replacing consumables, i.e. bearings, capacitors, and items which have a finite life, should not affect the quality if the item concerned, but when items such as boards, arms, or non-standard items are used to replace original items, then it's a minefield.
But as with everything else, it's only worth what someone is prepared to pay, no matter how much you may think it's better than original.
A big Ta to all contributors.
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There is much talk on the net about replacing the R200 bias belt and the general view is that nothing is available, other than some difficult DIY cutting of an existing toothed belt. Have you found a source of suitable belts?

You can actually part dismantle the base of the arm and set the bias to a fixed value. Something like 1.5g works pretty well with most carts.
I've an R200 with an original working belt. I turn the dial very slowly when absolutely necessary, just in case.
 
Robert said:
I've an R200 with an original working belt. I turn the dial very slowly when absolutely necessary, just in case.
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If it's in one piece it might be worth dismantling it and sticking the belt in some Autoglym Vinyl & Rubber Care - that stuff really works wonders on tired and dry rubber and can bring ancient turntable mats etc back from the brink, really brings it back to life somehow. It is to rubber what Servisol Foam Cleanser 30 is to cleaning everything else to do with grubby vintage hi-fi!
 
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Cheers Tony, I'll get some of that Autoglym.
Already use the foam, and yes it works wonders on crap encrusted old kit.
 
Thanks for mentioning Servisol; I've just ordered some, to clean some slightly marked equipment. Always worth a try.
Would Autoglym work on the rubber surrounds of older speakers?
 
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