Steven Toy
Accuphase newbie
This particular exchange is almost a sub-discussion working at a lower level.
Thinking aloud: obj / sub / ABX cyclic arguments etc Part III
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This particular exchange is almost a sub-discussion working at a lower level.
Simply look up 'expectation bias'.
Read. Understand.
Then simply accept that it also applies to you.
darrylfunk
Banned
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Well, perhaps. But you can't really null test the output from a loudspeaker, you can only realistically null test the signal. I'm suggesting, just suggesting, the possibility that the amp/cable/speaker system, taken as a holistic unit (as most agree it should be) wouldn't 'null' in the way you suggest, and it's our ear/brain system that tells us that something is not quite right, or that one amp/cable/speaker system gets it a bit more right than another.
Then there's the source and support system, which is another where I think it'd be tricky to null test the output, because you're still testing what comes out of the speakers, not what's in the signal cable.
I haven't even won a cycling proficiency award.
Have you won a queens award?
You cannot be 'attacked' for boasting as you will be answering a question put to you.
sergeauckland
pfm Member
That's very much my view too. When two amplifiers null to 90dB, I can't see how anyone could claim they still sound different. Ditto with cables and anything else that can null to those depths. Even a 60dB null would be pretty indistinguishable under programme conditions.
There's no evidence, even anecdotal, that there are unknown properties of audio that could account for differences that would be audible even with a 90dB null.
It really does seem to be a done deal when it comes to audibility of differences.
S
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Yes, done that. A while ago.
Expectation (or experimenter's) bias isn't simply a case of observing the results you expected to measure; it can also refer to the experimenter arriving at the conclusion from his results that he expected in the first place.
Which is, kinda, what I'm suggesting could be happening in blind tests, in a manner of speaking.
Cuts both ways, innit.
Of course I have won a Queen's Award or I wouldn't have mentioned it. It was part of a team of four for novel methods in designing digital VLSI chips. I was the number 2 technologist (but the number 1 was in a class of his own, and a truly modest man - it was an honour to work with him). My Queens Award trophy is my most prized possession.
Nic P
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
I think this forum is chock full, of exactly that sort of anecdotal evidence. You may choose to dismiss it, but that's not to deny its existence.
I would imagine Serge means anecdotal from audio engineers and the like.
Not faith based forum contributions.
Seems I was wrong then and therefore withdraw my scepticism.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Getting a bit personal and edgy now, Arthur. Talk of 'faith' leads to talk of 'unicorns' in my experience, which is about where I decide to depart.
sergeauckland
pfm Member
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
OK, I stand corrected on that particular point.
pure sound
Trade: manufacturer/distributor
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Not at all inappropriate given the circumstances.
Oi! I thought you were on my team?
maxflinn
pfm Member
Steven, I'm just hoping that some of the guys questioning the merits of ABX testing might apply the same rationale to the Vertere demonstration.
Mr Moghaddam obviously wanted people to hear the improvements that he claimed that his most expensive cable offers.
What did he do right? What did he do wrong? Did he utilize psychology in his favour, or use it to ensure as fair a comparison as was possible?
In light of all the talk of ABX testing here, are there relevant lessons to be learned from his demonstration?
I'll paste a participants rundown of events, to make it easier.
THE CABLING (Budget System)
The evening started with the budget system, which was mostly wired with PULSE D-Fi (except a PULSE B from Bel Canto -> amp):
- 3.5mm jack -> RCA (1m)....£105
- I/C (1m)..................£145
- S/C (2m)..................£250
- USB (1m)..................£70
- USB (DD)..................£140
THE MUSIC
Patricia Barber.....Let it rain (WAV)
Dido...............? (Apple Lossless)
M. Buble............Feaver (MP3)
Keb Mo.............? (WAV)
P. Floyd....Comfortably Numb (WAV)
Nils Lofgren...Keith don't go - Acoustic Live (CD)
Terry Evans.....Get your lies straight (CD)
?..............Misty - 3 Blind Mice label (CD)
Diana Krall....Girl in the other room (CD)
THE FORMAT
1. iPod (H/phone jack) -> Amp
2. PC (H/phone jack) -> Amp
3. PC (USB) -> Bel Canto Dac (Pulse B) -> Amp
4. As above but with DD USB
5. PC (wireless) -> Airport Express (jack/RCA) -> amp
THE SOUND
Given it started off with a very budget system, fed by an iPod through its h/phone socket, I wasn't expecting much. In fact I was really expecting to tread water until the big system was put on.
Well, boy was I wrong. As the system sprang into life, it immediately grabbed my attention. It was clean, clear, detailed and musical. I have heard more than my fair share of basic systems, but none of them sounded like that.
If you had told me I was listening to a £2k system, I wouldn't have questioned it...and all from an iPod. Now of course the little Tannoys didn't have a lot of bass, but the sound was always enjoyable, which is more than can be said of a lot of other more expensive systems I've come across.
As we went through each progression (listed above), the sound improved...with the BC Dac bringing the biggest single jump. It was like starting at the back of a concert hall and gradually moving up to the front row, for a more intimate experience. The music became more natural and effortless, with a flow and timing that was above the pay grade of this bargain level system.
What proved the most puzzling was with the insertion of the DD USB (twice as thick), which brought an improvement that I believe we all heard.
Now its possible that Sansui have brought out a wonderful amp, and its match with the Tannoys is great...but I believe Touraj is on to something and has found a way of truly freeing up the potential in the kit you have.
THE EXPENSIVE SYSTEM
THE CABLING
- As above for iPod, PC and Bel Canto Dac
- I/C PULSE B (£731 - 0.65m) and PULSE R (£2046 - 0.65m)
- S/C PULSE X (£1350 - 2M) and PULSE X Ref+* (£2500 - 2M)
*The only difference is the plugs.
Though not used, there is a PULSE C range:
I/C...£286 for 1.1m
S/C...£395 for 2m
So the I/C range goes (I think): PULSE D-Fi -> C -> B -> B Ref -> R -> PULSE (Handmade)
and S/C: D-Fi -> X -> X Ref -> PULSE Handmade (I think).
THE FORMAT
1. As with the budget system ie. iPod/PC/BC Dac
2. Electro CDP was inserted and the system used all PULSE B I/Cs and PULSE X S/C
3. PULSE R inserted between CDP and Pre
4. PULSE R also inserted between pre and power
5. PULSE X Ref+ S/C replaced the standard X.
Apologies if all this Pulsing is confusing....but that's because it is....I've tried to lay it out as simply as possible, and may well have got it wrong.
THE SOUND
Now the moment of truth. As this system got into its stride, there was more of everything....and now there was bass.
To me, starting with the iPod, the sound was good, but I certainly felt the system was being held back....like a Farrari with a timid pensioner behind the wheel.
As we progressed through the same steps as before, there was an incremental improvement...but I was still not blown away. It was interesting to note that I felt the same improvement was there when the DD USB was inserted (I know, I know, I'm deluded!)
At last the Electro CDP came on line with the cheaper PULSE B (compared to the Pulse R, but certainly not cheap). Now that's better - the class of this system started to shine through....and was a fine example of the importance of the source. The naturalness and openness moved up several notches.
The mid range and treble was clear, detailed and sweet, but the bass, to my mind wasn't quite right. I suspect it was mostly the room, and there is also the fact that the STs aren't big enough to do barn storming bass (and certainly not in a room like that).
Next came the insertion of the PULSE R between CDP and Pre. The effect was subtle yet profound. I hadn't realized there was a very slight boxiness to the sound until then. As I have often said, good is good, until you hear better.
With the insertion of the second PULSE R (Pre -> Power), again an improvement, but interestingly to my ears, not as much as the insertion of the first one from the CDP....imo showing that preserving the signal from the source has the biggest effect.
The final stage was the addition of the PULSE X Ref+ S/C. Now we were really hearing what this beautiful system was capable of. The sound was like having "no cable". We were now in the front row of an intimate concert, with the level of detail being very impressive...all those little details and ambient noises, which are usually missing on less expensive systems, were there.
The Electro kit is truly impressive, but if I was being a little picky, the STs bass was not quite right....but improved noticeably with the better cables.
It was the same pieces of music that were used to give some consistency between each change. After this was finished, anyone who had brought a CD, had it played.
CONCLUSION
I can't do anything about those who think I was bamboozled into hearing things that weren't there, and fell prey to every self deluded-brain trickery going. All I can tell you, is that nearly 40 years of hearing all sorts of systems, at all sorts of prices, allows me to bring a little insight and experience to the proceedings..even allowing for the subjective nature of it.
Surprisingly, the lasting impression I had from the evening, was not how good the expensive system was, but just how good the cheap system was made sound. I can't stress this enough, and don't expect anyone to take my word for it. Go listen for yourself and please report back on what you find...even if it's in complete contrast to my opinion.
The expensive cables were really impressive, but so were ones from Atlas (Mavros/Asimi); Telurium Q (Ultra Black); Cardas (Golden Cross / Ref)...and without a direct comparison, it's impossible to tell.
Actually, I think it's with the cheap cables that he may have something that is frighteningly hard to beat at the money.
If you take noting else out of what I've said, take out this:
- If you have an iPod or PC, try the D-Fi 3.5 jack to RCA..or one of the USBs to a Dac
- The D-Fi range sounds better than anything I've heard at comparable money...your kit may have far more potential than you realize.
- As you can see from my close-up photo of the Pulse X s/c, he has done something completely different to every other cable on the planet...so why not go and see for yourself if its made a difference.
AND FINALLY
A big thank you to all at Kronos AV (David, Gary and Keith) for the splendid and fascinating evening. It was quite a scoop to get Touraj over to NI, as he is doing very little of this kind of thing in the rest of the UK this year.
Congratulations, Nic. I'd be proud of that too. Did you have to go to the Palace and receive it from the Queen?
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