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Thinking aloud: obj / sub / ABX cyclic arguments etc Part III

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Congratulations, Nic. I'd be proud of that too. Did you have to go to the Palace and receive it from the Queen?

There were four winners and only 3 places at the Palace. I had left the team two years before the award (which were a brilliant 2 years for me) but they decided to send the 3 current members of the team to the palace. My replacement was a lady I thought was terrific, so I was delighted for them. They took a lot of time to describe what happened to me. Usually the Duke of Edinburgh substitutes for the Queen 'cos he is really interested. They had an amazing time. I would have loved to be there - but not possible.

Nic P
 
I'm curious where this number comes from?
Plucked out of the air as being much bigger than the difference between cables, bigger than the insertion of a 16 bit AD-DA, in the ball park of the difference between the input and output of an amplifier.

Paul
 
Difficult - the last time I answered briefly a similar question I was attacked for boasting. One fact - I have a DPhil from Oxford University in Numerical Analysis. After that my career moved into computer science and many directions thereafter. That is all I will say to you.

Arthur has also had a go at my qualifications ... have you won a Queen's Award for Technology?

Nic P

Thanks. Just wondered about your scientific background. I don't have a Queen's Award, but I do have a Nature paper.
 
Steven, I'm just hoping that some of the guys questioning the merits of ABX testing might apply the same rationale to the Vertere demonstration.

Mr Moghaddam obviously wanted people to hear the improvements that he claimed that his most expensive cable offers.

What did he do right? What did he do wrong? Did he utilize psychology in his favour, or use it to ensure as fair a comparison as was possible?

In light of all the talk of ABX testing here, are there relevant lessons to be learned from his demonstration?

I'll paste a participants rundown of events, to make it easier.


THE CABLING (Budget System)

The evening started with the budget system, which was mostly wired with PULSE D-Fi (except a PULSE B from Bel Canto -> amp):

- 3.5mm jack -> RCA (1m)....£105
- I/C (1m)..................£145
- S/C (2m)..................£250
- USB (1m)..................£70
- USB (DD)..................£140

THE MUSIC

Patricia Barber.....Let it rain (WAV)
Dido...............? (Apple Lossless)
M. Buble............Feaver (MP3)
Keb Mo.............? (WAV)
P. Floyd....Comfortably Numb (WAV)
Nils Lofgren...Keith don't go - Acoustic Live (CD)
Terry Evans.....Get your lies straight (CD)
?..............Misty - 3 Blind Mice label (CD)
Diana Krall....Girl in the other room (CD)

THE FORMAT

1. iPod (H/phone jack) -> Amp
2. PC (H/phone jack) -> Amp
3. PC (USB) -> Bel Canto Dac (Pulse B) -> Amp
4. As above but with DD USB
5. PC (wireless) -> Airport Express (jack/RCA) -> amp

THE SOUND

Given it started off with a very budget system, fed by an iPod through its h/phone socket, I wasn't expecting much. In fact I was really expecting to tread water until the big system was put on.

Well, boy was I wrong. As the system sprang into life, it immediately grabbed my attention. It was clean, clear, detailed and musical. I have heard more than my fair share of basic systems, but none of them sounded like that.

If you had told me I was listening to a £2k system, I wouldn't have questioned it...and all from an iPod. Now of course the little Tannoys didn't have a lot of bass, but the sound was always enjoyable, which is more than can be said of a lot of other more expensive systems I've come across.

As we went through each progression (listed above), the sound improved...with the BC Dac bringing the biggest single jump. It was like starting at the back of a concert hall and gradually moving up to the front row, for a more intimate experience. The music became more natural and effortless, with a flow and timing that was above the pay grade of this bargain level system.

What proved the most puzzling was with the insertion of the DD USB (twice as thick), which brought an improvement that I believe we all heard.

Now its possible that Sansui have brought out a wonderful amp, and its match with the Tannoys is great...but I believe Touraj is on to something and has found a way of truly freeing up the potential in the kit you have.


THE EXPENSIVE SYSTEM

THE CABLING

- As above for iPod, PC and Bel Canto Dac
- I/C PULSE B (£731 - 0.65m) and PULSE R (£2046 - 0.65m)
- S/C PULSE X (£1350 - 2M) and PULSE X Ref+* (£2500 - 2M)

*The only difference is the plugs.

Though not used, there is a PULSE C range:
I/C...£286 for 1.1m
S/C...£395 for 2m

So the I/C range goes (I think): PULSE D-Fi -> C -> B -> B Ref -> R -> PULSE (Handmade)
and S/C: D-Fi -> X -> X Ref -> PULSE Handmade (I think).

THE FORMAT

1. As with the budget system ie. iPod/PC/BC Dac
2. Electro CDP was inserted and the system used all PULSE B I/Cs and PULSE X S/C
3. PULSE R inserted between CDP and Pre
4. PULSE R also inserted between pre and power
5. PULSE X Ref+ S/C replaced the standard X.

Apologies if all this Pulsing is confusing....but that's because it is....I've tried to lay it out as simply as possible, and may well have got it wrong.

THE SOUND

Now the moment of truth. As this system got into its stride, there was more of everything....and now there was bass.

To me, starting with the iPod, the sound was good, but I certainly felt the system was being held back....like a Farrari with a timid pensioner behind the wheel.

As we progressed through the same steps as before, there was an incremental improvement...but I was still not blown away. It was interesting to note that I felt the same improvement was there when the DD USB was inserted (I know, I know, I'm deluded!)

At last the Electro CDP came on line with the cheaper PULSE B (compared to the Pulse R, but certainly not cheap). Now that's better - the class of this system started to shine through....and was a fine example of the importance of the source. The naturalness and openness moved up several notches.

The mid range and treble was clear, detailed and sweet, but the bass, to my mind wasn't quite right. I suspect it was mostly the room, and there is also the fact that the STs aren't big enough to do barn storming bass (and certainly not in a room like that).

Next came the insertion of the PULSE R between CDP and Pre. The effect was subtle yet profound. I hadn't realized there was a very slight boxiness to the sound until then. As I have often said, good is good, until you hear better.

With the insertion of the second PULSE R (Pre -> Power), again an improvement, but interestingly to my ears, not as much as the insertion of the first one from the CDP....imo showing that preserving the signal from the source has the biggest effect.

The final stage was the addition of the PULSE X Ref+ S/C. Now we were really hearing what this beautiful system was capable of. The sound was like having "no cable". We were now in the front row of an intimate concert, with the level of detail being very impressive...all those little details and ambient noises, which are usually missing on less expensive systems, were there.

The Electro kit is truly impressive, but if I was being a little picky, the STs bass was not quite right....but improved noticeably with the better cables.

It was the same pieces of music that were used to give some consistency between each change. After this was finished, anyone who had brought a CD, had it played.

CONCLUSION

I can't do anything about those who think I was bamboozled into hearing things that weren't there, and fell prey to every self deluded-brain trickery going. All I can tell you, is that nearly 40 years of hearing all sorts of systems, at all sorts of prices, allows me to bring a little insight and experience to the proceedings..even allowing for the subjective nature of it.

Surprisingly, the lasting impression I had from the evening, was not how good the expensive system was, but just how good the cheap system was made sound. I can't stress this enough, and don't expect anyone to take my word for it. Go listen for yourself and please report back on what you find...even if it's in complete contrast to my opinion.

The expensive cables were really impressive, but so were ones from Atlas (Mavros/Asimi); Telurium Q (Ultra Black); Cardas (Golden Cross / Ref)...and without a direct comparison, it's impossible to tell.

Actually, I think it's with the cheap cables that he may have something that is frighteningly hard to beat at the money.

If you take noting else out of what I've said, take out this:
- If you have an iPod or PC, try the D-Fi 3.5 jack to RCA..or one of the USBs to a Dac
- The D-Fi range sounds better than anything I've heard at comparable money...your kit may have far more potential than you realize.
- As you can see from my close-up photo of the Pulse X s/c, he has done something completely different to every other cable on the planet...so why not go and see for yourself if its made a difference.

AND FINALLY

A big thank you to all at Kronos AV (David, Gary and Keith) for the splendid and fascinating evening. It was quite a scoop to get Touraj over to NI, as he is doing very little of this kind of thing in the rest of the UK this year.

i used to work for touraj.

I have nothing but respect for him and can say nothing but....

The cables are as good as anything else around.

As for the demo/sales thing.... Every cable company does this.

In the u.s. and most of the rest of the world the designers 'name & the rep' sells.... touraj has a great history of great designs.... so it's the same as westlake on dacs, nelson pass for amps, george cardas on cables, mr van den hul on cables, that ex hi fi journo who works for nordost with his wife etc etc...

so that's how they are sold.


p.s. touraj is quite a good dancer. better than larry that's for sure.
 
Maxflinn,

I have spoken to the guys at Kronos AV on a number of occasions. It's a long story, especially as I've never been to Northern Ireland. You could learn a few things from those guys. :)
 
How many subjectivists does it take to change a lightbulb?

Three. One to change the bulb and two to whine on about how the old lightbulb was better.

How many objectivists does it take to change a lightbulb?

None. No one has presented reliable, peer-reviewed evidence to show why the light bulb needs changing.
 
How many subjectivists does it take to change a lightbulb?

Three. One to change the bulb and two to whine on about how the old lightbulb was better.

How many objectivists does it take to change a lightbulb?

None. No one has presented reliable, peer-reviewed evidence to show why the light bulb needs changing, despite the fact they were all sitting in the dark .
...

apologies for the editing .
 
i used to work for touraj.

I have nothing but respect for him and can say nothing but....

The cables are as good as anything else around.

As for the demo/sales thing.... Every cable company does this.

In the u.s. and most of the rest of the world the designers 'name & the rep' sells.... touraj has a great history of great designs.... so it's the same as westlake on dacs, nelson pass for amps, george cardas on cables, mr van den hul on cables, that ex hi fi journo who works for nordost with his wife etc etc...

so that's how they are sold.


p.s. touraj is quite a good dancer. better than larry that's for sure.
I hope he payed you well :)

I shouldn't single out Mr Moghaddam, as you're right in that they all do these demos the same way, but of course, they have good reason to, as expensive Foo products are no different to the cheap but perfectly adequate products out there that do the same things.

These demonstrations are clearly structured to sell promises, not to show differences, and utilize psychology in a disingenuous way, unlike properly controlled ABX testing.

Yet it would seem that they escape the scrutiny and scepticism that some people on this thread reserve only for ABX testing.

Astonishing..
 
I hope he payed you well :)

I shouldn't single out Mr Moghaddam, as you're right in that they all do these demos the same way, but of course, they have good reason to, as expensive Foo products are no different to the cheap but perfectly adequate products out there that do the same things.

These demonstrations are clearly structured to sell promises, not to show differences, and utilize psychology in a disingenuous way, unlike properly controlled ABX testing.

Yet it would seem that they escape the scrutiny and scepticism that some people on this thread reserve only for ABX testing.

Astonishing..

totally.

by the way i have heard the arm and some of the cables.... the arm is stupendous and totally unaffordable.

the cables well they work like all audio cables.

touraj will make a comfortable living at vertere and quite right too.

i'm hoping he designs a cheap all in one record player.

the hi fi industry has to move to the mainstream world of apple and puters' really.
 
I hope he payed you well :)

I shouldn't single out Mr Moghaddam, as you're right in that they all do these demos the same way, but of course, they have good reason to, as expensive Foo products are no different to the cheap but perfectly adequate products out there that do the same things.

These demonstrations are clearly structured to sell promises, not to show differences, and utilize psychology in a disingenuous way, unlike properly controlled ABX testing.

Yet it would seem that they escape the scrutiny and scepticism that some people on this thread reserve only for ABX testing.

Astonishing..

It seems that HiFi has joined cosmetics, holidays, clothes, even cars, in selling promises, lifestyles, expectations rather than anything as boring as functionality. When pretty much any piece of Hifi equipment, clothes or cars are boringly predicatable as to performance, how else can one sell? Why should anyone buy Arcam as against Cambridge Audio as against Musical Fidelity, or BMW against Mercedes against Audi against Jaguar if it isn't sold on looks, brand image (what it says about you) and perceived value rather than performance. Yes, there are technical differences, but they are so far below purchaser's buying motivations that they very seldom get much space in the brochures.

S.
 
It seems that HiFi has joined cosmetics, holidays, clothes, even cars, in selling promises, lifestyles, expectations rather than anything as boring as functionality. When pretty much any piece of Hifi equipment, clothes or cars are boringly predicatable as to performance, how else can one sell? Why should anyone buy Arcam as against Cambridge Audio as against Musical Fidelity, or BMW against Mercedes against Audi against Jaguar if it isn't sold on looks, brand image (what it says about you) and perceived value rather than performance. Yes, there are technical differences, but they are so far below purchaser's buying motivations that they very seldom get much space in the brochures.

S.

Your car comparison falls down Serge, the brands you mention all have an objective identify and drive differently and for those who appreciate driving they are easy to discern.
 
It seems that HiFi has joined cosmetics, holidays, clothes, even cars, in selling promises, lifestyles, expectations rather than anything as boring as functionality. When pretty much any piece of Hifi equipment, clothes or cars are boringly predicatable as to performance, how else can one sell? Why should anyone buy Arcam as against Cambridge Audio as against Musical Fidelity, or BMW against Mercedes against Audi against Jaguar if it isn't sold on looks, brand image (what it says about you) and perceived value rather than performance. Yes, there are technical differences, but they are so far below purchaser's buying motivations that they very seldom get much space in the brochures.

S.
And when said consumers go on audio forums to speak about the HiFi purchase that lends them kudos, they feel that they must attribute the warm glow they feel towards it solely to the sound quality.

It's no wonder there's so much confusion :rolleyes:
 
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