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Why are grammar schools elitist?

OK

I mentioned special needs, not Special Needs

My point stands

There seems to be an outlook whereby somehow it perfectly OK to help the less able( rightly so) but not the more able

I agree that the mechanism for ensuring that every single student gets the education that is most optimal is very difficult but that applies as much to the more as well as the less able

Streaming "on the fly" is fine in theory, and there are many outstanding comprehensive schools..

But why should the introduction of grammar schools make any difference to this?

Simon

Sorry, but you're quite wrong when you say 'it perfectly OK to help the less able( rightly so) but not the more able'. It is not, and never has been OK to help the less able at the expense of the more able.

'Gifted and talented' is one of many identified characteristics' that teachers have to plan for in every lesson for every child. It's part of the job.

On a personal level I see it as my job to identify the specific needs of each pupil and help each pupil achieve to their own highest potential.

Finally, I don't see how changing the capitals in your statement that Special Needs pupils are at the bottom of the ability range makes it any less offensive, or indeed, wrong.
 
I went to a Grammar School as did my brother and second sister who left before doing her A Levels. My youngest sister went to a Secondary Modern School. Both my sisters own their own businesses. One is a multi millionaire and the other is very comfortably well off. My brother and myself are not. We became teachers. That said at my School students who failed the 11Plus got another chance and came in as New Thirds as they were called and went on to do well or not like everyone else. As is so often the case the entrenched views of the Hard Left and Liberals has dominated any discussion on the merits or otherwise of the Tripartite system as it used to be and this is the reason why the Education system is in the state it is in. It is not convenient to mention these second and sometimes third chances that students had to get into the Grammar if they failed the 11 Plus at the first attempt. Interesting that most of the Shadow cabinet went either to Grammar Schools or Private Schools along with their children.
 
Not quite

There is a severe skills shortage in this country, which is why we need so many imported skilled people

Simon

We are importing labour because it is cheaper, not better.

The 'severe skills shortage' is a direct result of the scrapping of Youth Training, the wholesale closure of FE provision and the farcical approach to Apprenticships.

IOW, 'letting the market decide', rather than using intelligently planned intervention. A typical Tory example of STUPID writ large.

Still it won't be for long because once our remaining foreign owned manufacturers have relocated to south eastern Europe the problem will disappear.

Mull
 
Sorry, but you're quite wrong when you say 'it perfectly OK to help the less able( rightly so) but not the more able'. It is not, and never has been OK to help the less able at the expense of the more able.

'Gifted and talented' is one of many identified characteristics' that teachers have to plan for in every lesson for every child. It's part of the job.

On a personal level I see it as my job to identify the specific needs of each pupil and help each pupil achieve to their own highest potential.

Finally, I don't see how changing the capitals in your statement that Special Needs pupils are at the bottom of the ability range makes it any less offensive, or indeed, wrong.

Spot on.

Simon needs to grasp the difference between Special Needs and Learning Difficulties.
 
Sorry, but you're quite wrong when you say 'it perfectly OK to help the less able( rightly so) but not the more able'. It is not, and never has been OK to help the less able at the expense of the more able.

'Gifted and talented' is one of many identified characteristics' that teachers have to plan for in every lesson for every child. It's part of t he job.u

On a personal level I see it as my job to identify the specific needs of each pupil and help each pupil achieve to their own highest potential.

Finally, I don't see how changing the capitals in your statement that Special Needs pupils are at the bottom of the ability range makes it any less offensive, or indeed, wrong.

Ok

I used the wrong terminology....apologies if this caused offence

My point remains and i will rephrase it since you addressed the point directly


Every student should be given the education that allows them to maximize their potential

My point is that it often seen as acceptable to pay attention to doing this for the less able able( i totally support giving the less able every help possible) but often branded as elitist to do so for the more able

You allude to delivering lessons to cater for every ability level within one class aka differentiation

I suggest that it is only possible to do this within limits, and there is a case for (sometimes) actually segregating students of different abilities

The timing and mechanism for achieving this is fraught with problems, i agree, and i certainly don't have all the answers here, but that should not stop us trying to do it

Simon
 
Ok

I used the wrong terminology....apologies if this caused offence

My point remains and i will rephrase it since you addressed the point directly


Every student should be given the education that allows them to maximize their potential

My point is that it often seen as acceptable to pay attention to doing this for the less able able( i totally support giving the less able every help possible) but often branded as elitist to do so for the more able

You allude to delivering lessons to cater for every ability level within one class aka differentiation

I suggest that it is only possible to do this within limits, and there is a case for (sometimes) actually segregating students of different abilities

The timing and mechanism for achieving this is fraught with problems, i agree, and i certainly don't have all the answers here, but that should not stop us trying to do it

Simon

You might want to take a wider look at your terminology. No school 'segregates' pupils. Some might think your slip into the language of apartheid, accidental as I'm sure it is, is a little Freudian
 
I went to a Grammar School as did my brother and second sister who left before doing her A Levels. My youngest sister went to a Secondary Modern School. Both my sisters own their own businesses. One is a multi millionaire and the other is very comfortably well off. My brother and myself are not. We became teachers. That said at my School students who failed the 11Plus got another chance and came in as New Thirds as they were called and went on to do well or not like everyone else. As is so often the case the entrenched views of the Hard Left and Liberals has dominated any discussion on the merits or otherwise of the Tripartite system as it used to be and this is the reason why the Education system is in the state it is in. It is not convenient to mention these second and sometimes third chances that students had to get into the Grammar if they failed the 11 Plus at the first attempt. Interesting that most of the Shadow cabinet went either to Grammar Schools or Private Schools along with their children.

This reads as if you think giving people another bite at the cherry was the tripartite system.

It wasn't.

The tripartite system was the grammar - technical -sec modern school structure that very few LEAs adopted.
They preferred to leave out the technical schools.
 
As with so much soundbite politics there is a grain of logic behind it, but the big picture is missed. There is clearly a benefit to streaming children to their interests and abilities, but grammar schools/secondary moderns have been proven time and again to be a failed model in that respect. The hard evidence always points to them being a less effective solution for a variety of reasons, e.g. poorer children not being coached for the 11+ and maybe developing a school year later etc etc. Lots of reasons. There is mountains of research into this stuff out there, and proper research, not simplistic bullshit from politicians. The current situation is deeply flawed and can certainly be improved. We have ended up with a situation where wealthier people tend to go to better schools, where religion has far too much influence etc, but May's half-baked dream of returning to a Trumpton past is destined to fail. In fact it will never make it through the HoL.

The whole point of modern comprehensive education is to stream on the fly, i.e. provide education targeted to that specific child's abilities and interests. It is a far more logical and neuanced method of achieving the best result regardless of background. The problem in recent years is some spectacularly dumb politicians (some within Labour, though more specifically Michael 'idiot' Gove etc) set a series of absurdly ill-thought-out targets without even understanding the basic concepts let alone being prepared to listen to highly qualified experts within the profession. That we now have schools setup and run by belmtards such as Toby Young is just terrifying. May also looks set to relax legislation regarding religious brainwashing in schools too. A very scary time to have children. We should be looking at countries that do this stuff much better than us, e.g. Norway etc, and learning from them. Sadly we have a hard-right government and a population largely incapable of thinking beyond the simplistic reactionary soundbite.

Yes, seems like career suicide for here. Although education is a key thing to sort out, she has a massive job in front of her taking us up to the next election, probably. I am surprised she has opened this can of worms when carefully navigating us through Brexit is more than a full time job on its own. Maybe I'm not surprised. As soon as MPs get to Downing Street, ego and personal projects get forced on us.
 
Having spent several decades in education at various levels, and to avoid a long rant I would make the following observations

1. A lot of nonsense is spoken by politicians who frankly have no idea what they are talking about. A lot of damage has been done by various ministers of education, of both main parties

2. The school system is held accountable for most of society's ills. Remember that education is one small part of a complex jigsaw that includes parental and peer influence,genetics and others

3. There is no single "silver bullet" If there was we would have found it already

4. Protagonists on both sides tend to present the arguments as black and white

My conclusion is that in affluent areas, with supportive, well educated parents, the comprehensive system with "streaming on the fly " works well, and that here, introducing selective schools would not likely improve matters

And this is really selection in disguise......if parents are educated and motivated ..... Lucky children.....if not...too bad

However, in more deprived areas, where in many schools much time and energy is expended on dealing with the problems that go with deprivation, academic excellence tends to get sidelined, and there is often a case for totally segregating students who show strong academic potential

I observe that in a comprehensive in a deprived area, even with streaming, the poor behaviour of many of the students from deprived homes does really impinge on the progress of the more able, even with streaming. Comprehensive education is not the best solution here imo

There remain several serious problems here; any aptitude test(aka the 11 plus) can only be a snapshot, and it precludes the variation in development rates of different students

Notwithstanding, even with the above faults, selective education of some form can be the least worst choice in some cases

My overriding feeling is that we should spend much more money and effort in preventing many problems by focussing on the early years. I rejoice when i hear many of the more enlightened contributors expounding this view and i live in hope that we will stop going round this endless barren circle of comprehensive versus grammar and be radical enough to tackle what imo is the real root of the issue ie that many parents simply are unfit to rear children and the state must intervene at a much earlier age

By the time most children start school, it is already to late.....

Laurie
 
Now try actually dealing with the point I have raised

But the point you raised was self evidently ridiculous. You basically said "Why is it ok to give more help to people who need it but not to people who don't?".

And of course the most academically gifted do get treated differently (streaming, options to do extra exams, take exams early, etc) although other people here are much more qualified to explain exactly how than me.
 
Before this turns into the usual pfm feeding frenzy where people are pulled up for using words like segregation(FFS). I understood the point regarding the time devoted to remedial learning vs hot housing(or lack of) the gifted as one worthy of some discussion.
They shouldn't be mutually exclusive but given the resources in schools today and the measure/targets imposed by government the above average can be left to fend for themselves when they could be pushed further a la Grammar school.The 2013 Ofsted report says as much. In my own son's case even attending grammar the gifted of the gifted had after school maths and chemistry clubs-there just weren't enough hrs in the teaching day to give these kids the attention they deserved.
 
"above average can be left to fend for themselves when they could be pushed further a la Grammar school"

You have no idea!!!
 
Before this turns into the usual pfm feeding frenzy where people are pulled up for using words like segregation(FFS). I understood the point regarding the time devoted to remedial learning vs hot housing(or lack of) the gifted as one worthy of some discussion.
They shouldn't be mutually exclusive but given the resources in schools today and the measure/targets imposed by government the above average can be left to fend for themselves when they could be pushed further a la Grammar school. In my own son's case even attending grammar the gifted of the gifted had after school maths and chemistry clubs-there just weren't enough hrs in the teaching day to give these kids the attention they deserved.

Are you saying that a teacher in a Grammar school pushes their kids further than a teacher in an 'ordinary' school?
 
I know of no comprehensives that do not push their brightest pupils.
I have been in several lately.
Have you?

The scenario I gave was one where the teacher was having to devote extra time to those who are struggling. If you can be sure that scenario doesnt impact on those who are already reaching the gov targets then we can all relax. Perhaps you should visit one again and sit in on a class teaching respect and civility?
 


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