ks.234
Half way to Infinity
You haven't answered Bob's question. Have you been in a classroom recently? If so, what type of school, and in what capacity?
Why are grammar schools elitist?
- Thread starter Simon Vess
- Start date
You haven't answered Bob's question. Have you been in a classroom recently? If so, what type of school, and in what capacity?
cooky1257
pfm Member
OK, I give up, all our schools are great, in fact the bog standard Comp is clearly every bit as good as a grammar school so all this talk of creaming off the best or casting the 11 plus failures onto the Comp scrapheap is what exactly?
Spike
pfm Member
Ah, so you really have no idea!!!
cooky1257
pfm Member
I've taught in HE for 8 years, the last school I was in was a local Comp before that in my son's grammar school. The kids were on their best behaviour in each. I have several teacher friends looking to get out of the profession through over work. I have personal experience of my 2 stepsons who came through the comp system-perhaps there's is not a good example of a 'good' school or perhaps there just weren't enough maths stars to justify an after school club?
Simon Vess
pfm Member
That is certainly not a representation of what i said
Your post is a self evidently ridiculous attempt use the "straw man" to try to score a point
All students need help including the most able
My gripe is that it ok to help less able but not ok (elitist) to help the most able
Now try again...
Simon
cooky1257
pfm Member
I'd be grateful if you could shed some light on my question regarding the impact or lack of it that teachers spending time on those who may be struggling to reach the gov target standard has on the brighter pupils.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
I'm not sure if you're saying that teachers spend more time helping struggling pupils progress, and less time on more able pupils, or, that spending any time on struggling pupils is a distraction from time that could/should be spent on more able pupils?
Simon Vess
pfm Member
Many
With respect your reply displays great ignorance and dare I say it, rather sickening complacency
Simon
cooky1257
pfm Member
I'm positing the notion that within a fixed teaching day the allocation of time could be an issue. I said each type of attention shouldn't be mutually exclusive.
Are you saying in your experience it isn't an issue? Secret teacher in the Guardian has many first person accounts of targets and the impact they have on teachers/teaching.
richardg
Admonishtrator
Out! Out! Out! Out!
Simon Vess
pfm Member
Sorry..you are completely wrong on you first point.
i disagree with your politics , but never took you for a bigot
A large number of British companies cannot recruit sufficient highly skilled workers from the British population...eg the NHS and can only fill well paid vacancies by recruiting abroad.Talk to the CBI
Regarding FE, i agree that what we have is the result of many disastrous decisions taken by various governments, especially financial starvation over many years
Youth Training (are you referring to YTS in the 80's ?) was always a thinly disguised cynical Thatcher ruse to get unemployable youths off the Unemployment register and was widely abused by employers getting very cheap unskilled labour whilst the colleges diverted the funding they received for it into "more desirable" activities
I was actually working at several FE colleges at the time and saw this first hand
Simon
dan m
pfm Member
Slightly OT, but I think the idea of most gifted or brightest is over rated. I think it was in the book 'Genius' where I read it's small changes early on that can really make a difference. One example given was the birthday month distribution of NHL hockey players. Those that were born in a particular month that made them the oldest in their class year were much more likely to be streamlined into getting positive feedback that was compounded at each level of progression. They weren't necessarily gifted but ever so slightly more developed than there fellow schoolmates. However, once labeled gifted, it encouraged them to put in more time, and widen the gap at each level, until they put in their 10,000 hours that made them elite.
Simon Vess
pfm Member
Simon Vess
pfm Member
Do you support the view that every child has within them the potential to become "an Einstein" and that all that is required is for this potential to be unlocked by the right teaching (as espoused by Will Hutton)?
If so , a noble ambition , but not one that I can relate to
Simon
Simon Vess
pfm Member
richardg
Admonishtrator
Nope. Just wondering when you are going to get kicked off.
cooky1257
pfm Member
In the absence of an answer from either Spike or ks234....I'll shed some light of my own.
Ofsted;
Many students became used to performing at a lower level than they were capable of. Parents or carers and teachers accepted this too readily. Students did not do the hard work and develop the resilience needed to perform at a higher level because more challenging tasks were not regularly demanded of them. The work was pitched at the middle and did not extend the most able. School leaders did not evaluate how well mixed-ability group teaching was challenging the most able students
assessment, tracking and targeting were not used sufficiently well in many schools.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/too-many-bright-children-let-down-in-the-state-system
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...students-still-too-much-talent-going-to-waste
There is a contrary view from the teaching profession;
http://schoolsimprovement.net/ofsted-report-fuels-debate-over-mixed-ability-teaching/
From the website above;
Mary Bousted, general secretary of ATL, said that a move to scrap mixed-ability classes was contradicted by recent research on the subject.
One study by the Department for Education showed that setting in maths had a “negative effect on both attainment and motivation”, she said.
A separate study showed “that while there may be slight improvement in attainment for pupils in the top ability group, this is significantly outweighed by the negative impact on the rest of the class”, she added.
However, a study published last year by the Royal Economic Society showed that a higher proportion of “low-achieving pupils” in each class had a “negative and significant effect on the academic achievements of regular pupils” because they monopolised teachers’ attention.
Interesting.
Ofsted;
Many students became used to performing at a lower level than they were capable of. Parents or carers and teachers accepted this too readily. Students did not do the hard work and develop the resilience needed to perform at a higher level because more challenging tasks were not regularly demanded of them. The work was pitched at the middle and did not extend the most able. School leaders did not evaluate how well mixed-ability group teaching was challenging the most able students
assessment, tracking and targeting were not used sufficiently well in many schools.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/too-many-bright-children-let-down-in-the-state-system
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...students-still-too-much-talent-going-to-waste
There is a contrary view from the teaching profession;
http://schoolsimprovement.net/ofsted-report-fuels-debate-over-mixed-ability-teaching/
From the website above;
Mary Bousted, general secretary of ATL, said that a move to scrap mixed-ability classes was contradicted by recent research on the subject.
One study by the Department for Education showed that setting in maths had a “negative effect on both attainment and motivation”, she said.
A separate study showed “that while there may be slight improvement in attainment for pupils in the top ability group, this is significantly outweighed by the negative impact on the rest of the class”, she added.
However, a study published last year by the Royal Economic Society showed that a higher proportion of “low-achieving pupils” in each class had a “negative and significant effect on the academic achievements of regular pupils” because they monopolised teachers’ attention.
Interesting.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
You're in a hole Simon. Stop Digging
Tony L
Administrator
Why would he get kicked off? Losing the argument to at least three highly experienced educational professionals here is far more amusing! I know qualification, knowledge and experience count for nothing these days in Toryland, but it us still fun to watch for those of us who do still respect such things! ;-)
PS for the record Simon had not done anything wrong from an AUP perspective at all. I've no issue whatsoever with the topic/question whatsoever and I don't know why you'd think I would have.
dan m
pfm Member
No, but I do think "genius" is far more nurture and perspiration than inspiration. The concern I have is that an artificial bi-modal distribution in ability is introduced through a test and separation at age 11.