Thetiminator
Painfully virile
Those were the optimum settings on the subs, 43hz roll off and -18db on the volume. If I increase the roll off point or volume above these points the mids suffer and the sound loses definition, detail and neutrality....
Which MiniDSP unit?
- Thread starter Thetiminator
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Strictly Stereo
Trade: Strictly Stereo
Is that the crossover frequency or are we talking about the low end extension of the sub? If you want to improve your midrange, low pass the subs at a higher frequency (~100Hz), high pass the mains at the same frequency and using the same sort of filter. Then adjust delays to align the subs and mains. That will take the low bass load off the main speakers, which will allow them to do a better job with what is left.
Strictly Stereo
Trade: Strictly Stereo
...Then run Dirac over the top to deal with room related issues or to apply your own tone curve.
Thetiminator
Painfully virile
With mine it’s the opposite though. The bass of my main speakers down to where they tail off c. 40-42hz is so good, powerful, and fast that any addition from the subs is actually of worse quality than the bass from the mains, which use 18” Vitavox compression drivers at £3k a piece....
The subs are really just to fill in below the roll off point of the mains I.e the 20-42 range.
The subs are really just to fill in below the roll off point of the mains I.e the 20-42 range.
Thetiminator
Painfully virile
Probably where I’m looking to get to is for the DSP to tune the output of the subs so I can achieve flat bass response all the way to 20HZ. Whereas at the minute I have huge bass power from the mains to say 40hz, and the subs have to be set at -18db volume for the 20-42hz range, if that makes sense?
Strictly Stereo
Trade: Strictly Stereo
I’d still be inclined to take charge of the crossover, just make the crossover frequency lower if you want to use more of the main speakers' range.
Another option is to use Multi-Sub Optimizer to design filters for the mains and subs which work cooperatively to flatten to out the low end response at the listening position. You have a few options here, but one of them is to allow the main speakers to run across their entire range. You can then run Dirac over the top of this, if you wish.
Another option is to use Multi-Sub Optimizer to design filters for the mains and subs which work cooperatively to flatten to out the low end response at the listening position. You have a few options here, but one of them is to allow the main speakers to run across their entire range. You can then run Dirac over the top of this, if you wish.
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
T perhaps post the REW plot of your room/system?
Keith
Keith
camverton
pfm Member
Tim, it does seem as though the appropriate SHD unit would work very well for you, and Lee of Strictly Stereo is your man for an initial supply and install. IME he is good at listening to what you want to achieve and if it isn't possible to achieve it not try to convince you that your aims are wrong just to get a sale.
I would, FWIW, first measure your mains to see where they go down to and, assuming you like like the bass from your mains, use that info to ascertain the crossover point.
I would then set the output (gain) of the sub to match the mains, apply the routing and crossover using the SHD not forgetting to set delays to account for any variance in distance between mains and sub to your listening position. I would then measure mains and sub together to see if any tweaks are required to phasing and sub level. Whilst Dirac can be very effective I find it is best to get the system as well optimised as possible before running it.
Properly integrated you might be surprised at how seamless the transition to the subs is. At this stage it might be worth experimenting with different crossover frequencies and the steepness of the low and high pass filters.
If there is any lumpiness in the low bass, Dirac should be able to help. It is worth making a few different Dirac filters, one to 200 Hz perhaps and another full range, assigning them to different presets to make for easy comparison. You can even blindfold yourself at this stage, but if you have a cat don't tread on its tail! You might find that a full range Dirac filter will improve the tightness of imaging at the listening position, although it is worth checking if it makes thing worse for listening away from the central listening position.
Critical in the Dirac process is setting the target curve; the default should work well but it can be altered to your taste. For example if you find the full range result a bit dull then altering the target curve to follow the in room frequency response of your speakers can give imaging improvements without affecting the frequency response. Also one thing that can make a difference to the result is how far apart the different mic readings are when you run Dirac. I have found that the distances between mic measurements that work best are dependant on the speakers. Mind you, my speakers aren't the conventional box type!
A bit of a ramble, but hope some of it might help.
I would, FWIW, first measure your mains to see where they go down to and, assuming you like like the bass from your mains, use that info to ascertain the crossover point.
I would then set the output (gain) of the sub to match the mains, apply the routing and crossover using the SHD not forgetting to set delays to account for any variance in distance between mains and sub to your listening position. I would then measure mains and sub together to see if any tweaks are required to phasing and sub level. Whilst Dirac can be very effective I find it is best to get the system as well optimised as possible before running it.
Properly integrated you might be surprised at how seamless the transition to the subs is. At this stage it might be worth experimenting with different crossover frequencies and the steepness of the low and high pass filters.
If there is any lumpiness in the low bass, Dirac should be able to help. It is worth making a few different Dirac filters, one to 200 Hz perhaps and another full range, assigning them to different presets to make for easy comparison. You can even blindfold yourself at this stage, but if you have a cat don't tread on its tail! You might find that a full range Dirac filter will improve the tightness of imaging at the listening position, although it is worth checking if it makes thing worse for listening away from the central listening position.
Critical in the Dirac process is setting the target curve; the default should work well but it can be altered to your taste. For example if you find the full range result a bit dull then altering the target curve to follow the in room frequency response of your speakers can give imaging improvements without affecting the frequency response. Also one thing that can make a difference to the result is how far apart the different mic readings are when you run Dirac. I have found that the distances between mic measurements that work best are dependant on the speakers. Mind you, my speakers aren't the conventional box type!
A bit of a ramble, but hope some of it might help.
Thetiminator
Painfully virile
Cam that is brilliant and many thanks for taking the time to explain. You’re a gent!
Keith - unfortunately I wouldn’t have the skills or equipment to plot my system, I’m still coming to terms with the wheel
Lee thanks I think you could be right. If you’re over and could spare me a couple of hours to sort me out that would be great. If the system works well I’ll buy the equipment and if for some strange reason the DSP do anything beneficial I’ll look after you well for your time. Cheers...
Keith - unfortunately I wouldn’t have the skills or equipment to plot my system, I’m still coming to terms with the wheel
Lee thanks I think you could be right. If you’re over and could spare me a couple of hours to sort me out that would be great. If the system works well I’ll buy the equipment and if for some strange reason the DSP do anything beneficial I’ll look after you well for your time. Cheers...
Strictly Stereo
Trade: Strictly Stereo
Cam that is brilliant and many thanks for taking the time to explain. You’re a gent!
Keith - unfortunately I wouldn’t have the skills or equipment to plot my system, I’m still coming to terms with the wheel
Lee thanks I think you could be right. If you’re over and could spare me a couple of hours to sort me out that would be great. If the system works well I’ll buy the equipment and if for some strange reason the DSP do anything beneficial I’ll look after you well for your time. Cheers...
I'll be over in about two weeks time. I can get you started, but realistically you will need to spend some time listening to the system to find your preferred settings. Our first job will be to measure each of your speakers and subwoofers, as per Keith's suggestion.
ToTo Man
the band not the dog
I run my main speakers full range and use my subs to fill in where the mains roll-off. Tweaking the roll-off point of the subs without measuring it with software like REW would be extremely difficult and I don't think I'd trust my ears alone to do that. REW is very powerful software and can be overwhelming at first (I still don't fully understand all of its features despite having used it for 6 years!), however you can get pretty decent results by sticking to the basic stuff.
For dialling in the sub/s, I simply place the mic at the listening seat, play a Periodic Pink Noise signal, activate REW's Real Time Analyser, adjust each sub's gain to match the main speakers, then adjust the roll-off frequency to minimise the overlap between whilst also trying to minimise the 'hole' between where the mains fall off and the subs come in.
I don't currently use automated DSP, I just use a couple of manual parametric EQ notch filters to flatten room nodes, therefore my mains and subs are most likely NOT time-aligned. However I can't say I notice any detrimental effects. When I switch the subs on and off I don't hear anything different in the presentation apart from gaining another octave in low frequency extension. I don't hear any timing or integration issues. Maybe I've just struck it lucky or my ears aren't particularly sensitive to timing issues. My subs are within close proximity to my main speakers, which likely helps to minimise delays caused by location.
For dialling in the sub/s, I simply place the mic at the listening seat, play a Periodic Pink Noise signal, activate REW's Real Time Analyser, adjust each sub's gain to match the main speakers, then adjust the roll-off frequency to minimise the overlap between whilst also trying to minimise the 'hole' between where the mains fall off and the subs come in.
I don't currently use automated DSP, I just use a couple of manual parametric EQ notch filters to flatten room nodes, therefore my mains and subs are most likely NOT time-aligned. However I can't say I notice any detrimental effects. When I switch the subs on and off I don't hear anything different in the presentation apart from gaining another octave in low frequency extension. I don't hear any timing or integration issues. Maybe I've just struck it lucky or my ears aren't particularly sensitive to timing issues. My subs are within close proximity to my main speakers, which likely helps to minimise delays caused by location.
Thetiminator
Painfully virile
Cheers To To. Yes it might be a case of not realising there are time aligning issues until they’re fixed...
When I got the first sub I fiddled around for what seemed like an eternity with the set up...you could make incremental changes until the end of time, especially listening to different tracks! Also, because my speakers have mid and treble level adjusters you can muck around there too, dial in some bass, dial up mid and treble to compensate. A bit bass light, wind back the mid and treble, restart and repeat!!!!
When I added the 2nd sub I just set it exactly the same as the first....which might not be the thing to do either...
Eventually I got to the point where the subs just add the tiniest touch of bass extension (really the 40hz roll off of my mains isn’t the end of the world as there aren’t that many tracks I would listen too that have much below that), but don’t muddy what the mains do.
The biggest difference the subs made was actually the sense ambience to the recording and also to the midrange and imaging. Voices just gained a tiny bit more meat and were more realistic for it. The soundstage gained quite a lot more depth too, voices seemed to move forward around a foot or two.
I do love my sound, but I’m thinking it would be foolish not to try to tweak it for what would be very little outlay, proportionately I mean...
When I got the first sub I fiddled around for what seemed like an eternity with the set up...you could make incremental changes until the end of time, especially listening to different tracks! Also, because my speakers have mid and treble level adjusters you can muck around there too, dial in some bass, dial up mid and treble to compensate. A bit bass light, wind back the mid and treble, restart and repeat!!!!
When I added the 2nd sub I just set it exactly the same as the first....which might not be the thing to do either...
Eventually I got to the point where the subs just add the tiniest touch of bass extension (really the 40hz roll off of my mains isn’t the end of the world as there aren’t that many tracks I would listen too that have much below that), but don’t muddy what the mains do.
The biggest difference the subs made was actually the sense ambience to the recording and also to the midrange and imaging. Voices just gained a tiny bit more meat and were more realistic for it. The soundstage gained quite a lot more depth too, voices seemed to move forward around a foot or two.
I do love my sound, but I’m thinking it would be foolish not to try to tweak it for what would be very little outlay, proportionately I mean...
Strictly Stereo
Trade: Strictly Stereo
It would be a good idea for you to note down all of your current settings for the speakers and subs before I arrive. I would recommend setting all of the controls back to their neutral positions before we start making adjustments with the SHD. Leave everything as it is though for now so that we can measure your existing setup first.
Musicraft
Trade: Musicraft
Ime I would not use a low crossover point for the mains and the sub/ as with all things being equal a low crossover point wastes the potential of the sub/s and leaves most of the performance gains behind. Use bass management to unburden the mains with most if not all of the bottom two octaves of 20Hz - 40Hz and 40Hz - 80Hz and pass this LF burden on to the sub/s.
Thetiminator
Painfully virile
Ok will do, thanks.
I picked up a SHD a couple of months back and I’m finding it to be excellent at taming some bass issues as I currently have low ceilings above the speakers.
As a plus point, I read on the MiniDSP forums that the SHD now acts as a ROON endpoint as of the last volumino update. I’ve not tried it because I’ve just bought an auralic Aries G1 specifically for this and I’ll cry if it’s as good!
As a plus point, I read on the MiniDSP forums that the SHD now acts as a ROON endpoint as of the last volumino update. I’ve not tried it because I’ve just bought an auralic Aries G1 specifically for this and I’ll cry if it’s as good!
Strictly Stereo
Trade: Strictly Stereo
Yes, it does.
JemHayward
pfm Member
I've seen on the miniDSP website a WiFi adaptor thing, that seems to add Alexa control to the SHD - that would be VERY tempting - is it available in UK and how much does it cost? Has anyone tried it?
Riotvan
Snoofer in the Woofer
I'm interested in the SHD Studio to use as a digital crossover/pre-amp. Since i already have a great dac (Yggdrasil) and a second older dac that will surely suffice for bass duties the regular version seems like a waste of money to me. Anyone got some experience to share with using the Studio as a digital preamp? No nasties or bit crunchiness nervosa going on? I reckon the added transparency of hooking the dac straight up to the mains will negate any of it.
Speakers are Quested S7R's and the subs are BK XLS200-FF's, i plan to stack the mains on top of the subs and then crossover the subs quite high, maybe 200hz or hell even 400hz. What do you guys think? Reckon those subs can handle that? I checked the specs on the woofer and it seems it should be fine with it but idk.
Speakers are Quested S7R's and the subs are BK XLS200-FF's, i plan to stack the mains on top of the subs and then crossover the subs quite high, maybe 200hz or hell even 400hz. What do you guys think? Reckon those subs can handle that? I checked the specs on the woofer and it seems it should be fine with it but idk.
camverton
pfm Member
I went for the larger SHD with analogue. I basically use that as a preamp from various sources, outputting digital to Chord DAC for mains and analogue out to sub. It all seems to work fine although I prefer to use the Chord DAC after the SHD; not that there is anything wrong with the SHD output DAC but sounds not unlike a Benchmark DAC which is not to my taste YMMV.
As for the crossover, that sounds very high to me so I'd stick with crossing at 70-80Hz assuming the S7R specs are correct. One advantage of the SHD is that you can set up presets with different crossover points and compare. Last I heard Lee of Strictly Stereo (posts on this forum) stocks the SHD which would save importing.
As for the crossover, that sounds very high to me so I'd stick with crossing at 70-80Hz assuming the S7R specs are correct. One advantage of the SHD is that you can set up presets with different crossover points and compare. Last I heard Lee of Strictly Stereo (posts on this forum) stocks the SHD which would save importing.