Why do they want to provide wide dispersion? What about companies like Genelec and Neumann that use waveguides on both the tweeter and midrange to get the directivity they want? The fact they also get more SPL, deeper and louder bass, lower distortion, smoother directivity change (whatever the width), less cone breakup in the passband, etc... is wholly irrelevant?
Where does the money in expensive speakers get spent?
- Thread starter Sibbers
- Start date
Why do you think there is no baffle step correction?Here is the result of independently undertaken measurement: No forward sounding mid-lift. No BSC.
Scan-Speak publish a fairly flat response for their driver on a flat baffle and so in a cabinet that size it would have a 2 dB bump around 1kHz or so and an 8 dB roll-off below this. On the other hand, SEAS are rather unusual in publishing the response of their drivers in a small cabinet rather than a large flat baffle enabling the effect of the baffle step to be seen. This is the response for one of their 18 cm drivers.
That's all as maybe. All I'm demonstrating is that the step correction can often be engineered into the crossover without a separate BSC filter being needed. Either way, there is a loss of efficiency but that's the price paid for a smooth response, and the measurements above do not lie. They are exactly as measured. Point missed I think.
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
That semantics then. BSC is seldom done with a separate filter section, it can be built into the regular 2-pole or 3-pole LP filter with no additional components. Which is what you have done here.
EJJordan Design
Member
Hi - One of the PFM regulars asked us to add to the discussion about the Eikona and I'm alway happy to add any info (within my technical limits - I'm not Ted).
The JX92S in particular had a peak at HF due to a resonance in the dustcap, something which was addressed with the pole piece in the original Eikona and again with the Eikona 2. The peak is clear on the measurements but not obvious on listening. A broader, more general trend would be more audible.
Regarding toe-in - this is something Ted has always recommended for all his speakers. It is to do with the Haas effect and maintaining a stable stereo image away from the centre line between the two speakers. As you move off-axis from the nearer speaker, you move on-axis on the one farther away. This compensates for the increased volume from the nearer speaker and keeps the image stable. It is something he and others researched in the 1960s and 70s.
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
Call it what ever makes you happy
You said you could run the Revelator in free space with no baffle step filters. You are clearly using filters to compensate for baffle step. They're just not separate filters. Bit of equivocation there really.
This is a question I have never remembered asking myself. I just look at the price ticket and think "is what it does worth it?" If it is I get it. I don't really know or care what the price justification for my speakers is but if I like it and I want it that is the price ticket to pay is. The question, "can I afford it (or rather, what shall I sacrifice to afford it)" springs to mind next.
it is a simple viewpoint but it's an obvious one to me. I build and DIY stuff to keep me occupied and out of silly tit-for-tat arguments online but for speakers and the amps/dacs I just shrug. It's a lot of energy to expend/waste and most likely to overlook critical issues. I am not a hifi business. If it's not worth it, it most likely won't sell... At all.
it is a simple viewpoint but it's an obvious one to me. I build and DIY stuff to keep me occupied and out of silly tit-for-tat arguments online but for speakers and the amps/dacs I just shrug. It's a lot of energy to expend/waste and most likely to overlook critical issues. I am not a hifi business. If it's not worth it, it most likely won't sell... At all.
finkaudio
pfm Member
Hi,
here is what I think makes the price of a High-End speaker:
In most cases, the cabinet in often 50% of the production price. Depending on the complexity, it's sometimes even more.
Next parts are the drivers........companies with no real driver development buy Thiel or Scan-Speak or Seas. Companies with enough know how design own drivers and make them in house or in China. As the development costs a lot of money (you need a lot of expensive equipment and software), those in house drivers can be a lot more expensive than a standard one, even made in China.
A big part of the price could be the crossover. A standard PP capacitor with a decent sound costs only a fraction of what you have to pay for a Mundorf Supreme. The difference can be easily heard on a good system, but the price you have to pay for it is massive. Same for inductors and resistors. A Mundorf or Isabellenhütte or Caddock resistor sounds clearly better than a standard wirewound type, but you need a good system to hear it and again the price difference is huge.
And of course using WBT as input terminals is 10 times more than just using standard binding posts.
The attention to detail in production can also add a lot of money to the bill. Some companies match drivers as perfect as possible. Or they run the drivers in for some days.
Unfortunately a lot of those details cannot be seen on the final product, but they all add to the price of the speaker and (hopefully) to the quality.
It is a fact that distributors add a margin and dealers too - but that's true for every product. Even if companies advertise direct sales from the factory, they might not be cheaper. They just replace distribution margin with advertising budget plus the cost of all the speakers coming back from customers after some days of "testing".
Regards
KH
here is what I think makes the price of a High-End speaker:
In most cases, the cabinet in often 50% of the production price. Depending on the complexity, it's sometimes even more.
Next parts are the drivers........companies with no real driver development buy Thiel or Scan-Speak or Seas. Companies with enough know how design own drivers and make them in house or in China. As the development costs a lot of money (you need a lot of expensive equipment and software), those in house drivers can be a lot more expensive than a standard one, even made in China.
A big part of the price could be the crossover. A standard PP capacitor with a decent sound costs only a fraction of what you have to pay for a Mundorf Supreme. The difference can be easily heard on a good system, but the price you have to pay for it is massive. Same for inductors and resistors. A Mundorf or Isabellenhütte or Caddock resistor sounds clearly better than a standard wirewound type, but you need a good system to hear it and again the price difference is huge.
And of course using WBT as input terminals is 10 times more than just using standard binding posts.
The attention to detail in production can also add a lot of money to the bill. Some companies match drivers as perfect as possible. Or they run the drivers in for some days.
Unfortunately a lot of those details cannot be seen on the final product, but they all add to the price of the speaker and (hopefully) to the quality.
It is a fact that distributors add a margin and dealers too - but that's true for every product. Even if companies advertise direct sales from the factory, they might not be cheaper. They just replace distribution margin with advertising budget plus the cost of all the speakers coming back from customers after some days of "testing".
Regards
KH
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Fink Hi, nice to see you posting here, slightly off topic, has there been any further development on the loudspeaker you exhibited in Munich a couple of years ago?
KR Keith.
KR Keith.
Rodney gold
Im just me...
I have Vivid giya G1's , I think the money goes to the drivers (Vivid do their own), I have seen the Xover..doesn't use any fancy parts but it does use a lot of parts
The shells are something else .. i do resin casting and those shells are NOT cheap to do
And then there is R&D and dealer markup
Are they worth the $68 000 asked.. well if I had to pay that price I couldnt have afforded them..here in SA we get a vastly reduced price as they are made here..
I paid well below that price and think that they are worth every penny..
The shells are something else .. i do resin casting and those shells are NOT cheap to do
And then there is R&D and dealer markup
Are they worth the $68 000 asked.. well if I had to pay that price I couldnt have afforded them..here in SA we get a vastly reduced price as they are made here..
I paid well below that price and think that they are worth every penny..
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Fink ,how many loudspeaker manufacturers actually manufacture drivers from scratch, presumably driver manufacturers will OEM drivers, if the order is large enough?
Keith.
Keith.
Rodney gold
Im just me...
Vivid do it from scratch..and they have had a lot of requests to do their drivers for other speaker mnfgrs and they declined..
Igloo Audio
Registered User
That's certainly my understanding from selling Vivid's many moons ago and from my very pleasant conversations with Lawrence Dickie (designer).
Superb speakers, albeit the price has run away in the last decade.
Peter
finkaudio
pfm Member
Hi Keith,
yes,I have done some more work, but so far I did not have enough time to bring it to market. To design the product is easy (for us), but marketing, brochures, website, distribution and all the other necessary things take too much time :-(
Best regards
KH
finkaudio
pfm Member
Hi Keith,
OEM can be done on different levels. For example, all the Q-Acoustic drivers are designed in here in Essen with production in China, but with one of our engineers sitting in the factory, using Q-Acoustic tooling and jigs, glue and so on. That's a kind of extended workbench approach. OEM could also be a small change of an existing driver, as I made it ages ago myself with VIFA in Denmark. Or buying cheap crap drivers with your logo on
All depends...
There are still some companies doing drivers from scratch: B&W, Dynaudio, Focal, Magico, Vivid, all the IAG brands like Wharfdale, MISSION, ATC, Quad and Castle, some Spendor and Harbeth - I'm sure, there are a lot more
ATB KH
finkaudio
pfm Member
I can only speak for myself of course, but I always use some extra filtering for the baffle step. The traditional way is to use a larger inductor on the woofer filter to bring down the midband. As a result you end up with a hole below the baffle step cut-off. This has something to do with the real world cabinet shape.
Here is a simulation of a traditional 2-way with 6" driver and the theoretical response.
As you can see, you have the 6dB shift, but also an extra 2dB hump at 1k. Most rectangular speakers have the hump - so you need to do something with it. Don't hope it will smooth out in the room
I normally take out about half of the step plus the 2dB hump. Leaving the 6dB in completely, makes the speaker forward and shouty.
ATB KH
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
It did look and sound interesting, I do hope you manage to bring it to market, can't have enough really good speakers!
Keith.
Purité Audio
Trade: Purite Audio
Hi Keith,
OEM can be done on different levels. For example, all the Q-Acoustic drivers are designed in here in Essen with production in China, but with one of our engineers sitting in the factory, using Q-Acoustic tooling and jigs, glue and so on. That's a kind of extended workbench approach. OEM could also be a small change of an existing driver, as I made it ages ago myself with VIFA in Denmark. Or buying cheap crap drivers with your logo on
All depends...
There are still some companies doing drivers from scratch: B&W, Dynaudio, Focal, Magico, Vivid, all the IAG brands like Wharfdale, MISSION, ATC, Quad and Castle, some Spendor and Harbeth - I'm sure, there are a lot more
ATB KH
Thanks K, that is already more manufacturers than I expected!
I can't believe it is inexpensive to manufacture your own drivers.
What sort of parameters would a manufacturer hope to gain from their own driver than buying something off the shelf?
Thanks again,
Keith.
finkaudio
pfm Member
Hi Keith,
there is a lot you can gain. First of all, not everybody wants to use the same drivers that others use. Second you can do a lot of improvements independent from an OEM who might have to follow a different agenda. By doing your own research, you can concentrate on what YOU think is important. Speakers made a big jump up technology in the last 5 years, but most of the more well know OEM-vendors still do the same they did many moons ago. As long as they can sell, there is no need to do crazy things.
ATB KH