advertisement


TVC Preamps

Most people find a DAC useful. You get an attenuator for free. That attenuator is ideal. An exceptional ADC is cheaper than the type of analogue attenuator Tony is agonising over. Problem solved, with benefits.

Paul
Most DACs don't have an attenuator and many of those that do are hardly ideal. This is all so convoluted and unnecessarily complicated. Think about Tony's system....classic valve amp with a vinyl front end plus a CDP. You're pushing some form of personal agenda or crusade, not looking at what Tony is interested in.
 
Just to get back to the Tisbury/MFA comparison: I got to run through a few things yesterday though was also comparing a Sugden and Quad power amp at the same time. Mainly vinyl but finished with some digital as I wanted to check some things. Phono is Tron Convergence which is relatively new to me so I'm still exploring what that is doing as well.
First record was Brahms Alto Rhapsody with Christa Ludwig, an EMI from the 60s which sounds of its time but a decent recording none the less.
The really noticeable thing for me was the lack of deeper resonance to the voice with the Tisbury, really not sounding mezzo-soprano at all, a rather lighter, brighter soprano sound. Similarly with the orchestra, lacking a bit of body. The MFA to me bringing back that depth and also giving a wider spread between the speakers, particularly with the choir.
Next was the Schubert String Quintet with the Melos quartet plus Rostropovich. Similar sort of issue to the Brahms here, it's not the lower end that's missing completely with the Tisbury but a fullness somewhere around where the viola and upper end of the cello should be. There are some plucked sections early on that were pretty much lost to start with and as they get louder come through as just generally percussive, could equally have been a knocking, with the MFA there is much more of a sense of a string being plucked.
To check what was going on I played the digital version that I have of the Alto Rhapsody which is a fairly recent one with Christianne Stotijn. Clearly the recording style is very different but I was also surprised to find that the difference in sound with the two pre-amps was nowhere near a marked as it had been with the vinyl playing, still different but much less obvious.
The first thing I thought of that I have both vinyl and digital was Kind of Blue so got that out next, not to compare the two, but to compare the two pres separately on the two formats.
As before I found they came across as far more different in presentation with the vinyl than the digital, though both still had differences. In this case though the Tisbury presentation with vinyl actually had something going for it. On So What there was more bounce to the bass and a really metallic shimmer to the cymbal work that made for a funkier presentation, in some ways a bit more fun. Putting the MFA back gave a more even, more complete sound, enjoyable in a different way.
I'm guessing there could be various reasons why vinyl should have shown more of a difference between two pre-amps than digital; perhaps the Convergence works better into the TVC, perhaps the particular recordings used happen to highlight particular areas, perhaps my DAC just isn't putting out as much information, I don't know.
My conclusion at the time though was that the MFA was overall more even-handed and allowed more of the recordings through. The Tisbury could be fun and indeed I have used it in the past for quite a while, but with this phono stage and in comparison to the MFA there were times when it just sounded plain wrong.
Lastly, the Sugden/Quad comparison brought about a similar conclusion with the 405 being my preference there.
 
You're pushing some form of personal agenda or crusade, not looking at what Tony is interested in.
thats also how I feel. Paul seeem to be pushing a agenda for every single component he talks about

ignorant really and I wouldnt trust a word he has to say.
 
Most DACs don't have an attenuator and many of those that do are hardly ideal. This is all so convoluted and unnecessarily complicated. Think about Tony's system....classic valve amp with a vinyl front end plus a CDP. You're pushing some form of personal agenda or crusade, not looking at what Tony is interested in.
Tony is struggling with compatibility, perhaps looking at it from another angle would help. We went through the physics of attenuators upthread.

There's no agenda, if you want ideal control of gain and balance then digital is the answer. If you want universal compatibility then you need an active preamp. Generally though a relatively low impedance passive attenuator suffices, Tony already has an excellent example. TVCs create problems in exchange for sort of solving one. I don't see any point in significant investment in distortion creation. YMMV.

Paul
 
I recommend not playing a record more than once, so, yes. When sources are digital the elegant approach is digital attenuation.

A side benefit is the removal of digital 'overs' from cd.

Paul
 
Just to reiterate: not intetested in digital, not interested in modifying the Leak! I'm just looking for the right passive preamp option for what shoud be a perfect environment for such a thing (lots of sensitivity and a nice high inputimpedance). This should be a very simple question!

It also needs pointing out the system sounds superb on digital with either the AS or my little Tupperware pre. All I am looking to do is to present an easier load to the source component as I would like at some point to use a phono stage (likely tube given I have a Croft RIAA boxed up). That is it. It really shouldn't be a complex or convaluted thing. I guess logically what I should do is buy a nice 100k log pot and stick it in the Tupperware pre and see if that works.
 
Just to reiterate: not intetested in digital, not interested in modifying the Leak! I'm just looking for the right passive preamp option for what shoud be a perfect environment for such a thing (lots of sensitivity and a nice high inputimpedance). This should be a very simple question!

It also needs pointing out the system sounds superb on digital with either the AS or my little Tupperware pre. All I am looking to do is to present an easier load to the source component as I would like at some point to use a phono stage (likely tube given I have a Croft RIAA boxed up). That is it. It really shouldn't be a complex or convaluted thing. I guess logically what I should do is buy a nice 100k log pot and stick it in the Tupperware pre and see if that works.
The Leak mod is independent of your problem, it would just make the system more practical and increase your choices. It looks like it can be done by lifting a component leg and adding a resistor. Coupled with a note left in the chassis I think you'd be ok, compared to restoring the thing anyway.

A less sensitive power amp means that your attenuator runs nearer the middle of its range where it tracks better. A 100k pot becomes a viable solution.

I'm sceptical of the precision of Croft equipment after that Stereophile review. It might be worth measuring the setup in comparison to your Quad pre so you know which bug you're chasing.

Paul
 
The Croft RIAA is exceptionally minimal, its a large box with a little mains transformer hiding at one end and a couple of ECC83s and a few resistors and caps at the other. It annoys me actually as I'm short of space and it could easily have been a third of the size. It is however quite a nice MM phono stage, though may not be where I end up as really I'd like to find something where I can easily dial-in load resistance and capacitance, ideally on the fly. That is for another thread though. The Croft is however a useful thing to have knocking around as it shows how a pair of ECC83s react to the preamp load. FWIW I have compared the Croft to the modified Quad 34 and there is not a huge amount in it, and what there is fits the stereotype, e.g. Croft a bit fatter and rose-tinted, the Quad tighter and maybe a little more dynamic, though possibly a little sterile. The Quad has the advantage as it is setup exactly for the cartridge. The Croft has an advantage in that it is stuffed with vintage Mullards that are worth more than the Quad!

On CD/SACD in the context of the JR149s the Audio Synthesis ends up about half open to slightly beyond that. Stepped attenuators tend to have far more sensible step positions than standard pots, e.g. the Tupperware pre is very hot, it gives the level of the AS at about 1 o'clock at 9 o'clock. I really don't see the issue here as the Seiden 46 position attenuator I am considering will give me the control I need, I know this as I've checked the db steps against the front-panel labelling of the AS. My only question is to do with impedance matching, I know the level matching is a non-issue.
 
Does the Croft RIAA have a cathode follower output Tony? Normally there are 3 valves in circuit in a Croft. Also are there any recommendations in the manual etc as to what it should be connected too, input impedance wise?
 
I've no idea to be honest. It is a single ECC83 per channel, i.e. just two tubes, not the three of an EAR834P and most other tube phono stages I'm aware of. As is typical with Croft it doesn't come with any documentation! It is this model.

I'm not especially attached to it, I landed it as an experiment a few years back and it has sat in its box ever since so if I end up with the Leak back in the main system I will likely end up phono stage shopping again. I'm just hanging onto it short-term as I suspect if I can get it to sound good into a passive pre anything else will work too.
 
The reason I asked is because the earlier Croft RIAA circuits using only 2 values required the use of a 1meg volume control, otherwise the RIAA eq and the bass performance would be effected.
 
Interesting, I'd have thought that limited its usefulness somewhat! If that is true it makes it a lot less useful to me as a test case too.
 
I just checked some of the matching Croft products and it states the line input impedance is 100K so assuming this I wouldn't go below 100K ohms.
 


advertisement


Back
Top