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The Rise of the Far Right

Tony L said:
I’m interested as to what your experience of the UK is? Where have you visited? Your description doesn’t match the reality very closely, though it is very easy as a tourist to miss the wider picture.

Some data here:

The Scale of Economic Inequality in the UK | The Equality Trust

The UK has the 7th most unequal incomes of 30 countries in the developed world, but is about average in terms of wealth inequality. While the top fifth have nearly 50% of the country's income and 60% of the country's wealth, the bottom fifth have only 4% of the income and only 1% of the wealth.
equalitytrust.org.uk equalitytrust.org.uk
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Arrived in London in 1955, age 3. Left in 1969, then returned for a year 1970-71. So a total of 15 years. During the '80s and '90s worked for British newspapers and went there every now and then. Have not been back since around 1998, but keep in touch with friends who live there.

I looked at the data you linked, and seems like inequality fell steadily up to about 1980-85 and since then has crept up slightly. The comparison with other countries in Europe shows that it is not really greater in the UK than elsewhere; France and Italy about the same, Germany and Sweden more "unequal," others less so.

What I meant by a "predominantly middle class, conservative population" is that from what one might call the "lower middle class" to the "upper middle class" the shared values are stability, law and order, and their own economic well-being. Then of course there is a substantial minority of really poor people, and a small minority of rich and very rich people. But no different from most developed countries.

But in any case no politically volatile masses as in some South American countries.

I realise this clashes with your impression of a nation on the brink of revolution, and of course you are there and I am not.
 
PaulMB said:
I realise this clashes with your impression of a nation on the brink of revolution, and of course you are there and I am not.
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I’m not suggesting we are on the brink of revolution at all. Quite the reverse. To my eyes the UK is gently sliding into fascism. It is following exactly the same path Germany did in the 1930s and our politicians and press are using exactly the same rhetoric, division, demonisation and gaslighting techniques to ratchet-up authoritarianism. It feels like time travel.

PS The UK doesn’t really matter. We are an increasingly irrelevant and isolated nation in decline. The truly scary thing is what is happening in America. If Trump gets in Western democracy as we know it is likely under real threat.
 
Tony L said:
I’m not suggesting we are on the brink of revolution at all. Quite the reverse. To my eyes the UK is gently sliding into fascism. It is following exactly the same path Germany did in the 1930s and our politicians and press are using exactly the same rhetoric, division, demonisation and gaslighting techniques to ratchet-up authoritarianism. It feels like time travel.

PS The UK doesn’t really matter. We are an increasingly irrelevant and isolated nation in decline. The truly scary thing is what is happening in America. If Trump gets in Western democracy as we know it is likely under real threat.
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Yes, agree with you. Under threat from inside, e.g. Trump (it seems like a nightmare after having too much food for dinner, but it aint!) and under threat from outside, Russia, Iran, China, etc.
 
PaulMB said:
Arrived in London in 1955, age 3. Left in 1969, then returned for a year 1970-71. So a total of 15 years. During the '80s and '90s worked for British newspapers and went there every now and then. Have not been back since around 1998, but keep in touch with friends who live there.

I looked at the data you linked, and seems like inequality fell steadily up to about 1980-85 and since then has crept up slightly. The comparison with other countries in Europe shows that it is not really greater in the UK than elsewhere; France and Italy about the same, Germany and Sweden more "unequal," others less so.
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That data shows a 50% in increase in inequality, hardly “slight”.

Besides, we need to be laser focussed on slight decreases in inequality, not increases.

What I meant by a "predominantly middle class, conservative population" is that from what one might call the "lower middle class" to the "upper middle class" the shared values are stability, law and order, and their own economic well-being. Then of course there is a substantial minority of really poor people, and a small minority of rich and very rich people. But no different from most developed countries.
If the values are stability, law and order and economic well being, why have the “predominant” demographic vote for the opposite over the last half century
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But in any case no politically volatile masses as in some South American countries.

I realise this clashes with your impression of a nation on the brink of revolution, and of course you are there and I am not.
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Nobody has suggested we are on the brink of revolution?
 
Nick_G said:
So all of them then...
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I know a lot of local politicians of both of the main parties. The one thing that hits you straight away is that 99% of them are decent people who give up massive amounts of time in order to improve their local community. I have great respect for them.

The sad thing is that their future depends on the popularity of the government of the day and not their local performance.

As regards to Lee Anderson, I honestly don't know any Councillor who does not regard him as a nasty bit of work.
 
Mick P said:
I know a lot of local politicians of both of the main parties. The one thing that hits you straight away is that 99% of them are decent people who give up massive amounts of time in order to improve their local community. I have great respect for them.

The sad thing is that their future depends on the popularity of the government of the day and not their local performance.

As regards to Lee Anderson, I honestly don't know any Councillor who does not regard him as a nasty bit of work.
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I think this is what makes it difficult for people who know politicians personally to accept that we have a serious issue with the way that we're governed, and inclined to interpret passionate criticism of politicians as unhinged populism etc. In my (quite limited) personal experience, you do get many decent local and national politicians who genuinely want to help the community. But you also get at least as many who are very decent *until they are in any way thwarted*, at which point they have no problem at all resorting to the worst kinds of bullying and corruption.

Neither of these types have much trouble reconciling themselves to stuff they suspect is quite dodgy, if it means putting themselves on the line or blowing the whistle on colleagues and friends. You can see this for yourself at a local level just by going along to a council meeting where an obviously deleterious housing development is being considered. You'll see clearly bent advocates who will, in 5 or 2 years time, walk into plum jobs with the housing companies involved. You'll see most councillors keeping schtum. You'll see some pained looking individuals raising objections before sadly conceding that the rules and the needs of the community oblige them to wave the application through.

At a national level, well, we've all just seen it. Labour lent on Hoyle to subvert parliamentary procedure, then boasted about it. Everybody knows what happened. Lots of decent people amongst Labour MPs. How many of them objected?
 
It is all joint enterprise IMO. Those parroting say the current Tory line that Lee Anderson was “wrong” but will deflect away from his obvious racism/Islamophobia are vapid spineless cowards enabling the rhetoric of stochastic terrorism and fascism. They are the very worst of us.

The tribalism in politics is repulsive IMHO. I detest it and always have done (which is why I have never been a member of any political party). It is as brain-dead as the worst football thuggery. Anyone decent has their own moral compass and they will act on it regardless what anyone else thinks. I have nothing but contempt for those who toe a party line when they know that position is wrong. Both main parties are full to the brim of these spineless integrity-free shits.
 
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Mick P said:
Dear Tony, if a local councillor of any political persuasion tried to defend Lee Anderson's racist shit, they would lose their job unless they represented one of the fruitcake ones..
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I reckon you are as wrong about this as you are about PFI and Liz Truss.
 
molee said:
I reckon you are as wrong about this as you are about PFI and Liz Truss.
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Someone here actually supports PFI? Incredible. Literally.

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Supporting Liz Truss if you are a wealthy rightwinger only interested in tax cuts for yourself and f*ck everyone else, is marginally more understandable
 
ks.234 said:
Someone here actually supports PFI? Incredible.
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Mick was right at the centre of it; I remember him bragging here about pocketing £1k a day in over-inflated contract rates that his grandchildren will be paying back. Pure loan-sharkery. A scam in the true sense of the word IMHO. As bad as any phishing email, but played out on a national scale.
 
Tony L said:
Mick was right at the centre of it; I remember him bragging here about pocketing £1k a day in over-inflated contract rates that his grandchildren will be paying back. Pure loan-sharkery. A scam in the true sense of the word IMHO. As bad as any phishing email, but played out on a national scale.
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Ah yes, privatisation, the last, and first, refuge of the morally and economically illiterate
 
ks.234 said:
Ah yes, privatisation, the last, and first, refuge of the morally and economically illiterate
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It is worse than privatisation IMO, it is a loan-shark/payday-loan shop model. There is zero added value in borrowing/building in this way. It is a scam. Almost certainly a scam engineered by politicians with their grubby hands deep inside the national till.
 
Tony L said:
It is worse than privatisation IMO, it is a loan-shark/payday-loan shop model. There is zero added value in borrowing/building in this way. It is a scam. Almost certainly a scam engineered by politicians with their grubby hands deep inside the national till.
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Absolutely. PFI is a Ponzi Scheme.

As is obvious to anyone who has paid been even scant attention, PFI achieved certain short term political objectives at the expense of loading debt onto the Welfare State. Debt, as we know, is an instrument of control designed to extract money from a system. Not put it in.

It is the very purpose of those at the top of the Ponzi Scheme, those who get in early, to extract as much wealth as quickly as possible from any available source

And Labour have promised to do it all over again ffs.

These people are dangerous.
 

Owen Jones is one of sadly far too few in the media to grasp exactly what the Tory establishment is doing in ramping up “security” for MPs and elites whilst erasing centuries of hard-won human rights including our fundamental right to protest. This is the mindset of Putin, Iran, Saudi, China etc, and of course Hitler and Stalin. It is unquestionably the wrong direction for this country.

To re-quote Benjamin Franklin (I think for the second time on this thread): “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”.
 
Seanm said:
Conservative Party activist and political correspondent Nick Robinson here, having a discussion with Nigel Farage about whether or not Charlotte Church should be arrested for having pro-Palestinian views, on the the BBC. OK.

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One unfortunately is now in danger of fascist fatigue. One just hears such as this and goes 'of course they are,' not really reacting to the outrage of it.
 
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