Colin L
High-tech low-life
Quite the generalisation. For every system ever?
Subs n Lows
- Thread starter IWC Doppel
- Start date
The best bass I’ve heard in my old room was actually from high passed main speakers in bi-amping and DSP applied but it screwed some other things , very good results could be obtained without too but one sub might not cut it .
I found minute phase adjustment quite vital plus some subs have built in PEQs which help dialling in and tweaking required response.
camverton
pfm Member
I’ve used subs more often than not for the past thirty years. Often they’re not doing much but they are essential for getting the thrill of a bass drum in a big orchestral work as well as some of the more made in a studio genres.
They are sods to set up well, but a lot easier than previously with dsp in external units or dsp built into the subs, even with adjustment via an app whilst sitting in the listening position. We really are spoilt these days.
As to whether they should be ‘crossed’ to the mains or brought up under the mains with only a low pass filter in the subs, I think that depends on the quality of the bass of the mains and how well that is reacting with the room. For speakers where the bass has been boosted for effect than a crossover is likely the best way to go. For high quality speakers which already have good bass response than one might not want to lose any of the main speakers bass quality. In any case the way the room handles low frequencies is likely to be a big factor in choice.
They are sods to set up well, but a lot easier than previously with dsp in external units or dsp built into the subs, even with adjustment via an app whilst sitting in the listening position. We really are spoilt these days.
As to whether they should be ‘crossed’ to the mains or brought up under the mains with only a low pass filter in the subs, I think that depends on the quality of the bass of the mains and how well that is reacting with the room. For speakers where the bass has been boosted for effect than a crossover is likely the best way to go. For high quality speakers which already have good bass response than one might not want to lose any of the main speakers bass quality. In any case the way the room handles low frequencies is likely to be a big factor in choice.
I run active speakers and stereo DIY subs through a Pro Audio style dsp. A good dsp will be transparent enough to not affect the speakers output and used correctly, can be used to remove bass peaks in the room response that otherwise smear the midrange performance.
With a lot of practice and learning what changes look like on an REW graph what those changes sound like, you can quite easily get the house curve and integration you like.
I’ve always found that using a single sub that isn’t centred between the speakers, will be detectable due to added pressure from one side of the room, even with the crossover set low, unless the gain is turned down really low, but then your not getting the most out of your sub purchase.
With a lot of practice and learning what changes look like on an REW graph what those changes sound like, you can quite easily get the house curve and integration you like.
I’ve always found that using a single sub that isn’t centred between the speakers, will be detectable due to added pressure from one side of the room, even with the crossover set low, unless the gain is turned down really low, but then your not getting the most out of your sub purchase.
luxury_scruff
pfm Member
I use a Rel TZero mk3 with a pair of LS35a's. Really happy with the sound that this partnership brings.
Almost all speakers benefit from using dedicated subwoofers.
I guess mine too, but right now I do not have the space I need. My main speakers have enough membrane area so that the music is reproduced well. It's good to remember that bass is more than what happens below 40Hz. Slam is in the area of 60-120Hz.
Normally, one 8, 10" or 12" are not enough for having fun.
I guess mine too, but right now I do not have the space I need. My main speakers have enough membrane area so that the music is reproduced well. It's good to remember that bass is more than what happens below 40Hz. Slam is in the area of 60-120Hz.
Normally, one 8, 10" or 12" are not enough for having fun.
gez
pfm Member
Once I'm back in gainful employment I'll be purchasing a sub. But I'll be using it just to extend the bass response of my current speakers and for no other reason. I just want to be able to feel the room shake, so i'll be using it's built in EQ to just reproduce below 25hz. I'm not going to bother with the faff of high passing my mains and trying to smooth out current dips/peaks in the existing bass response.
Mike Hanson
Trying to understand...
Yeah, I started down that road myself, and then decided to try dialing it in by ear. After the initial setup, then tweaking it occasionally over the following hours/days, I'm quite happy with the result.
I resisted subs for decades, but finally took the plunge about 18 months ago. Now I can't imagine not having one in any "good" system. Even though my Klipsch Cornwall IV go down to 32Hz with their 15" woofers, they don't plumb the depths that I know are there. Adding the sub completes the picture really well.
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Mike Hanson
Trying to understand...
Yeah, that may end up being an issue. You can tweak the phase with the MiniDSP, but I'm not sure if that will get things back into alignment. This is one of the reasons why I just choose to use my ear with the sub's built-in crossover and volume controls.
camverton
pfm Member
Integrating mains and subs isn’t easy. I used to do it by ear but now get much better results with REW. I think part of the problem is that it is very difficult to aurally assess low bass - at least I find it difficult. In practice I found that there is a bit of latitude with timing as long as the bass isn’t ahead of the mains.
Latency of filters does need to be accounted for but if crossing over to the mains I get as good as I can with the aid of REW then let Dirac do the final penultimate tweak. The final tweak is by ear, fine tuning the sub gain to my personal taste.
By and large the lower the mains go the easier it is to integrate subs as their effect is much less obvious.
SteveG
pfm Member
I've tried a subwoofer in my system but found I preferred it without. That's a system with stand mount speakers but it's possible that the sub (which is one that used to be in my home cinema setup) isn't up to rest of the system.
I've been thinking I'll try it again in another one of my systems.
I've been thinking I'll try it again in another one of my systems.
I gave up in the end as I couldn’t align bass/mids crossover point to where it was when using same speakers with a single amplifier , I got frequency response close but couldn’t make phase alignment right.
Measurements definitely helped me with sub/speakers integration when speakers running full range, I ended up adding another sub as it smoothed response , I run them fairly low up to 55Hz where I have major room mode , with fine phase alignment cancelled the peak a little but biggest difference it made when it comes to decay times .
gez
pfm Member
But the question that immediately springs to mind is: When you were doing it by ear were you still discontent with the bass performance of your system? Or did you resort to measurement because you knew intellectually that the bass was going to be uneven when doing so? (i.e. you just had an itch you had to scratch) - Yes that's 2 maybe 2.5 questions
Strikes me that as long as it sounds good to somebody then it doesn't really matter what REW says. Particuarly as humans are highly insensitive to volume changes of bass frequencies (i.e. it's highly unlikely you can actually hear a 2-3dBA volume difference at 40-50hz). Most rooms have large peaks and suck outs (often well over 5dBA) in the bass region and most people struggle to hear them.
camverton
pfm Member
Over thirty years ago, by ear was the only method at my disposal. Looking back the presentation was probably a bit over the top. Nowadays I use REW because I can and because it takes far less time and tweaking to get it sounding right on all tracks, assuming they aren’t badly mastered. The trouble with setting up by ear is that one track might sound fine and another not. It takes time, unless very lucky, to find the settings that work on the widest range of music. As you rightly say it is difficult to assess low frequencies so is much easier with REW, dirac if wanted, a final adjustment of gain and then get on with enjoying music rather than spend days or weeks waiting for a track to show up a problem.But the question that immediately springs to mind is: When you were doing it by ear were you still discontent with the bass performance of your system? Or did you resort to measurement because you knew intellectually that the bass was going to be uneven when doing so? (i.e. you just had an itch you had to scratch) - Yes that's 2 maybe 2.5 questions
Strikes me that as long as it sounds good to somebody then it doesn't really matter what REW says. Particuarly as humans are highly insensitive to volume changes of bass frequencies (i.e. it's highly unlikely you can actually hear a 2-3dBA volume difference at 40-50hz). Most rooms have large peaks and suck outs (often well over 5dBA) in the bass region and most people struggle to hear them.
Room effects in addition to the integration of mains with subs are a lot of things to get right and without seeing where the problems are it is very difficult to address them.
From my experience I very much doubt if I could get such a good result purely by ear and not by using REW, other than by luck. Personally I would rather set it up quickly and enjoy the music, without the occasional interruption to tweak the settings, and knowing it is as good as possible.
I never used one until just recently. What I discovered is that you really need to get a good sub to match with your speakers. A sub properly set up in the room can make a big difference. A lot of times people cant tell that it is even connected. For me, that's the goal.
Yes but you’re still at the mercy of room and it’s modes , subwoofer in my case not only fills bit of bottom where standmount speakers don’t go but mainly I try to even out response and with bit of work minimise some peaks, decay times
marktr
Registered User
Yes, I agree, mercy of the room for sure! It’s not a ‘one fits all’ scenario. AN speakers have always worked in any listening room we’ve had, ‘set up’ being the key. Get it wrong and it’s not good. Get it right, WOW!