LINN SARA / Isobarik AMP ? CLASS A or NOT ?
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James46
The Crystal Method
Having owned three pairs of Sara's and one Isobarik DMS, Naim NAP135's (Chrome bumper versions) is the path forward with either speakers. The 135's are so much better than the 160 or 250. I don't like the 250 in any form, it's just not right somehow musically.
Strangely, the NAP140 does a decent job with the Sara's, if you don't want loud.
Sara's are really difficult to get right, both positioning, stands and amps. The DMS is easier to get a decent sound with and they have deeper bass. The early canon input Sara's are more difficult, but they have something that the later ones don't have soundwise.
I still have a beaten-up old pair of Sara's which get a run out from time to time.
I wish you happiness on your hi-fi journey and I would try before you buy.
Strangely, the NAP140 does a decent job with the Sara's, if you don't want loud.
Sara's are really difficult to get right, both positioning, stands and amps. The DMS is easier to get a decent sound with and they have deeper bass. The early canon input Sara's are more difficult, but they have something that the later ones don't have soundwise.
I still have a beaten-up old pair of Sara's which get a run out from time to time.
I wish you happiness on your hi-fi journey and I would try before you buy.
Robert
Tapehead
Original Sara impedance dips well below 4 ohms and does so where the music spectrum demands considerable power.
Don't get hung-up on brands or Class and instead focus on performance into sub 4 Ohm loads - so high current delivery and low output impedance are the two key elements.
Saras aren't particularly clean, don't have low distortion and are far from uncoloured, so don't worry about the amp being Class A - it isn't a virtue that a Sara can exploit particularly well.
The 'watts per channel' indicator isn't particularly useful unless we know what listening level is used. It has nothing to do with sound quality other than maximum loudness, so a 15w into 8 Ohm amplifier able to keep doubling its output cleanly as impedance moves to 4 and then 2 ohms and drive form a a very low impedance will sound as taut, controlled and 'powerful' as a 200w Krell if the small amp isn't overdriven. So listening level and room size are absolutely key when looking at power requirements.
Don't get hung-up on brands or Class and instead focus on performance into sub 4 Ohm loads - so high current delivery and low output impedance are the two key elements.
Saras aren't particularly clean, don't have low distortion and are far from uncoloured, so don't worry about the amp being Class A - it isn't a virtue that a Sara can exploit particularly well.
The 'watts per channel' indicator isn't particularly useful unless we know what listening level is used. It has nothing to do with sound quality other than maximum loudness, so a 15w into 8 Ohm amplifier able to keep doubling its output cleanly as impedance moves to 4 and then 2 ohms and drive form a a very low impedance will sound as taut, controlled and 'powerful' as a 200w Krell if the small amp isn't overdriven. So listening level and room size are absolutely key when looking at power requirements.
Thanks James & Robert
@Robert
Good point about Saras sound and class A ...that brings up one more question :
If Saras are hard to drive and require a lot of current , are less detailed and so on...I wonder what would be the overall sound since Class A amps lack nasty transients which some may describe as "detail" and top end is "mellower" ... My fear is that class A wont be utilised as well as on other speakers , and that "synergy" between Linn and Naim is success of hard to drive speaker and raw-powered ( not refined) amp ...
Will arrange demonstration next week to hear for myself but looking at options till then...
Silly question...
I guess no one tried these with tubes ?
@Robert
Good point about Saras sound and class A ...that brings up one more question :
If Saras are hard to drive and require a lot of current , are less detailed and so on...I wonder what would be the overall sound since Class A amps lack nasty transients which some may describe as "detail" and top end is "mellower" ... My fear is that class A wont be utilised as well as on other speakers , and that "synergy" between Linn and Naim is success of hard to drive speaker and raw-powered ( not refined) amp ...
Will arrange demonstration next week to hear for myself but looking at options till then...
Silly question...
I guess no one tried these with tubes ?Norman Green
pfm Member
I believe I’ve had all versions of the Saras over the years – starting with the flat picture frame surround type – bought from Naim – used with a nac 42 , later 32 and a 12s at some point /110/160 , later CB 250. On reflection, l preferred the 160 with these Saras. Unless you need to listen at near deafening levels, I think most Naim amps are fine with Saras , used with proper Sara stands of course.
I’d moved on from a Nytech calculator receiver and active ARC 101s bought from R.Andrews when he was based down south. I remember an audition of the Saras at Naim. The man in charge of the demo – who later left Naim to make Audio Vois amps – said that the Nytech receiver wasn’t as ‘bad as he’d thought’, and that the Sara was bound to be better than any existing speaker.
I found the Saras worked best at MUCH LESS than loud levels and were then excellent on all types of music including Beethoven Piano Trios, choral music, Elvis P. etc.
I’ve never had Isobariks - too big, and hernia inducing to move ; owned Kan 2s for a few months in more recent years.
Now, for about ten years I’ve really enjoyed 72/250 olive etc with small Shahinians –actually preferring these to Arcs.
My last pair of Saras and stands travelled via Parcelforce and boat from Wiltshire to a buyer in the Orkney Islands.
I’d moved on from a Nytech calculator receiver and active ARC 101s bought from R.Andrews when he was based down south. I remember an audition of the Saras at Naim. The man in charge of the demo – who later left Naim to make Audio Vois amps – said that the Nytech receiver wasn’t as ‘bad as he’d thought’, and that the Sara was bound to be better than any existing speaker.
I found the Saras worked best at MUCH LESS than loud levels and were then excellent on all types of music including Beethoven Piano Trios, choral music, Elvis P. etc.
I’ve never had Isobariks - too big, and hernia inducing to move ; owned Kan 2s for a few months in more recent years.
Now, for about ten years I’ve really enjoyed 72/250 olive etc with small Shahinians –actually preferring these to Arcs.
My last pair of Saras and stands travelled via Parcelforce and boat from Wiltshire to a buyer in the Orkney Islands.
Robert
Tapehead
Thanks James & Robert
@Robert
Good point about Saras sound and class A ...that brings up one more question :
If Saras are hard to drive and require a lot of current , are less detailed and so on...I wonder what would be the overall sound since Class A amps lack nasty transients which some may describe as "detail" and top end is "mellower" ... My fear is that class A wont be utilised as well as on other speakers , and that "synergy" between Linn and Naim is success of hard to drive speaker and raw-powered ( not refined) amp ...
Will arrange demonstration next week to hear for myself but looking at options till then...
Silly question...
This opens a can of worms.
An uncharitable soul might suggest that the all guns blazing exciting sound of Saras is 'enhanced' by the sound of clipping (Naim?) amplifiers
Many Class AB amplifiers are very clean, even at very low powers so I wouldn't generalise on sound. Some small Class A amplifiers might sound soft and mellow but that is less likely a result of the Class A operating and more design decisions taken in other areas to produce a particular effect. Sorry to introduce numbers, but something like a Cyrus integrated running in AB will produce vanishingly low levels of all distortion, at any output level making the use of Class A in this situation moot.
It's a rather old argument and goes back to the days when early transistor amplifiers running in AB (or just B) performed poorly. In those days (the 60s and early 70s) you could justifiably argue that Class A was superior. Things are quite different 50 years later
Tubes & Saras - interesting
It could be made to work. I'm sure something like EAR 509s would do a good job.
You'd need something comfortable into low loads and preferably with a 4 (or 2) Ohm transformer tap. The Sara will need driving from a low impedance for best results which rules out 99% of tube amps unless you like the changes the mismatch introduces.
This opens a can of worms.
An uncharitable soul might suggest that the all guns blazing exciting sound of Saras is 'enhanced' by the sound of clipping (Naim?) amplifiers
Crossed my mind more than few times Well, class A amps have evolved since 60's as well so it is an even game ...
Avondale do a range of amps based on the NCC200, stereo, mono and duel power supply monos, the Voyager.
HackerNAPs are DIY on this forum.
I have a stereo NCC based amp driving a pair of Bricks much better than the NAP250 which it replaced. Plus I have built a pair of HackerNAPs, which are a massive step up, bringing an easy, open soundstage with a very quiet background, compared to the 250. (IMO of course)
Paul
muzzer
Numb Nut
Big Pass Labs amp here
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Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
Class A amplifiers are indeed superior to all other types.... for a variety of reasons, which I'll not go into here!
However, it is not easy to make class A amps of more than around 50 Watts due to heat removal necessities. Many commercial "class A" amps are nothing like as powerful as is claimed, or often implied.
Do we really need this much class A power though? So long as we get the first 10 - 20W in pure class A the only time it will be moving out of class A is for very brief musical transients and would probably be inaudible... This assumes push pull operation of course, in which the amp can move seamlessly to class AB when the maximum class A is exceeded.
Most valve amps of up to 25W or so output are actually class A and most above this power deliver a higher proportion in class A than is usual for S/S.... makes you think eh!? Maybe this is a big part of the "bias" (sorry) towards valves...
Admittedly, in this day and age the advances in the performance of output transistors and circuit topology mean that class A does not have as large an advantage over class AB as it once did. It's still there though!
However, it is not easy to make class A amps of more than around 50 Watts due to heat removal necessities. Many commercial "class A" amps are nothing like as powerful as is claimed, or often implied.
Do we really need this much class A power though? So long as we get the first 10 - 20W in pure class A the only time it will be moving out of class A is for very brief musical transients and would probably be inaudible... This assumes push pull operation of course, in which the amp can move seamlessly to class AB when the maximum class A is exceeded.
Most valve amps of up to 25W or so output are actually class A and most above this power deliver a higher proportion in class A than is usual for S/S.... makes you think eh!? Maybe this is a big part of the "bias" (sorry
) towards valves...Admittedly, in this day and age the advances in the performance of output transistors and circuit topology mean that class A does not have as large an advantage over class AB as it once did. It's still there though!
L&N republican
pfm Member
I ran old XLR type Sara's perfectly with nap160,ad one CB62 preamp and a quality source,and you will end with BIG "republican" smile.
Only just read this thread so please excuse my late contribution. I have both active Isobariks (in my main system) and Sara's too (in a second system). Yes indeed the Sara's can be difficult to get to sound good but I partnered them with some XTZ amps and am very impressed with the results. It's a different sound to the active briks but in its own way just as enjoyable with great dynamic range and a very impressive sound.
andrewhockley
pfm Member
+1. Best sound I've heard from Saras was with a pair of big Hypex Class D UCD700 monos. They managed to control them in a way I've never heard before. Great speakers.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
I ran a pair with a ZAP250 and it was a perfect match!
I'm considering getting another pair, I miss them so much.....
andrewhockley
pfm Member
Yes, there is something very special about an on-song pair of Saras. Wish I still had mine. But capable of sounding truly terrible when not working well. Maybe I should get another pair.
I have a pair of Sara's in my 2nd system and previously powered them with my chrome bumper 32.5/Hi-Cap/160 (which was converted to 180 spec by Naim in Salisbury about ten years ago). I then acquired a pair of Isobariks and used the Naim amps for those and obtained an LK1/280 for the Sara's. Some time later I took the Naims out of use as they were to be serviced, used the LK1/280 for the Briks and bought an XTZ-Class-A-100-D3 (integrated) and then added an XTZ AP100 (power amp) for bi-amping the Sara's with.
The XTZ integrated on its own sounded good with the Sara's but the addition of the matching/dedicated power amp really took things up a level or two. Oddly there was an issue initially with the AP100 though that was sorted after a little and the XTZ's have since (and still do) sound like an ideal match for the Sara's IMHO i.e. they sound just so musical, tight, revealing etc. etc.
The problem with the XTZ power amp BTW was that it kept cutting out initially, even if I used it just for the tweeters. I had the supplier replace the power amp but that didn't help then I changed the speaker cable and it was fine. The odd thing is that after a while I tried the original speaker cable again and it all worked perfectly - and still does a year or so later - maybe it was something to do with the amp running-in/settling down from new (I don't know).
What I can say is that, for me, the XTZ's and Sara's sound so good together I don't expect to be using my Naim amps with the Sara's even though I've gone active with my Briks and the Naims are off being serviced now.
Just in case anyone thinks I'm being less than serious and/or exagerating, you're welcome to come and listen for yourself if you would like to.
The XTZ integrated on its own sounded good with the Sara's but the addition of the matching/dedicated power amp really took things up a level or two. Oddly there was an issue initially with the AP100 though that was sorted after a little and the XTZ's have since (and still do) sound like an ideal match for the Sara's IMHO i.e. they sound just so musical, tight, revealing etc. etc.
The problem with the XTZ power amp BTW was that it kept cutting out initially, even if I used it just for the tweeters. I had the supplier replace the power amp but that didn't help then I changed the speaker cable and it was fine. The odd thing is that after a while I tried the original speaker cable again and it all worked perfectly - and still does a year or so later - maybe it was something to do with the amp running-in/settling down from new (I don't know).
What I can say is that, for me, the XTZ's and Sara's sound so good together I don't expect to be using my Naim amps with the Sara's even though I've gone active with my Briks and the Naims are off being serviced now.
Just in case anyone thinks I'm being less than serious and/or exagerating, you're welcome to come and listen for yourself if you would like to.
I've just hooked my old pair of Saras up to my AV amp. I was thinking of using them for a new years get together before probably selling them in the new year.
I'm surprised how good they sound. Bit more 'in yer face' presentation than my regular speakers (B&W DM2's) but still rather good.
I'd sort of dismissed them as the valve amps hated them. Now I might leave them in place over Xmas and have a rethink.
I'm surprised how good they sound. Bit more 'in yer face' presentation than my regular speakers (B&W DM2's) but still rather good.
I'd sort of dismissed them as the valve amps hated them. Now I might leave them in place over Xmas and have a rethink.