Leben CS300 vs Almarro 318b

[S-Man]

But as I'm well aware it goes against traditional standards to use said transformers - but it seem that some are going against the grain as shown here:

http://www.plitron.com/standard-tor...ials-for-plitron-toroidal-audio-transformers/

A friend and I substituted toroidal transformers into an 80's PP KT88 amp (one of the best amps I have ever heard). The toroidal trs measured a lot better in terms of hf response and transient response. LF response was very similar and peak o/p power was slightly lower with the toroids (more copper loss). The sound with the toroids was dissapointing, like an OK ss amp it lacked sparkle, grip and that touch of "magic". Reinstating the EI-cores - normal service was resumed!

And, why oh why - do some many of the old timers still crave only vintage tube gear?, if the likes of ones designed after say 1989 and afterwards are clearly superior?.


scar

Because they formed their opinions and values in the their early 20s (pattern formation in the subconscious:- E deBono etc) and it's pleasing to recreate and further entrench those patterns.
E.g. when I listen to 70/80s rock music and my system is on form, I think to myself "wonderful, that's how I always knew it should sound".

 

[Kt77]

A friend and I substituted toroidal transformers into an 80's PP KT88 amp (one of the best amps I have ever heard). The toroidal trs measured a lot better in terms of hf response and transient response. LF response was very similar and peak o/p power was slightly lower with the toroids (more copper loss). The sound with the toroids was dissapointing, like an OK ss amp it lacked sparkle, grip and that touch of "magic". Reinstating the EI-cores - normal service was resumed!



Because they formed their opinions and values in the their early 20s (pattern formation in the subconscious:- E deBono etc) and it's pleasing to recreate and further entrench those patterns.
E.g. when I listen to 70/80s rock music and my system is on form, I think to myself "wonderful, that's how I always knew it should sound".

S-Man,

Thanks for at least taking the time to explain things to me, as I'm not a DIY'er nor builder/designer or said tube amps - nor into the technology that lies behind them.

I'm more or less trying to stress the point that I love what I hear - and that I can only base this topic on said matter. Yet some do seem to want to write as a means of knocking someone else's choices - merely because in one persons case - someone isn't going on about their $60.000 power amps!.

But, if said party is so concerned about the consumers?, then I ask where then are their affordable options at around say $1.500 - $2.700?, maybe that why so many people whom are trying to get into tube amps for the first time don't have any options besides what is called here in the states as " Chi-Fi "?.

Which has been selling well over here as well as in Canada since 1989, because the power that be the bigger tube amp designers like ARC - C-J - VAC - VTL/Manley - Quicksilver and the likes are only going after those with deeper pockets.

As many American dealers tell my friends upon visiting their shops that a Luxman Class A Integrated is looked upon as entry level - to my mind - what's entry level at $5.000?, I say to thee BS - it's merely greed that puts said items out of the reach of the masses - but I guess they could be content with the likes of Sony - Harman Kardon - Onkyo - NAD - Yaqin and never have a chance to dream about ownership of anything over say $1.200 in regards to tube integrated's.

I don't knock people's choices - I normally only speak truthfully on the items I've heard that an OP might be asking about - yet at the same time use what own or have owned as a gauge - now I'd be the first to say that I don't own a High End system - but I have invested well over $16.000 into the humble system that I now have/own and most visitors think that's crazy until the needle hits the groove that is!.

I'm going to let this one roll off my shoulders as I normally do - but it would be nice if from time to time, I'd express an opinion without feeling challenged - by the big boys and their hell of fa' expensive toys.

Once again and often we must all find our own paths - but good advice comes from all parties whom have something valid to add - or as always, it this bound by certain nations and not others?, I wonder at times.

O

 

[wacko]

The reason Tannoy recommends a 50 watts amp has nothing to do with the Tannoys being a difficult load. They are a nominal 8ohm impedance and 93dB efficient. The problem is controlling that 10" cone correctly at normal to loud listen levels. The problem gets even worse if the cone is larger like 12" or 15". For these large cone drivers you really need about 50watts to control the cone properly, as well as an amp with a low output impedance and a good damping factor. For this criteria solid state fits the bill very well although some valve designs (push pull with NFB) can also work well.

Interestingly this does not seem to be case with Shindo or Devore O series speakers....

 

[S-Man]

The toroid thing was a single (rather surprising) experience. I did not intend to condemn all toroids by implication.

FWIW my entire system cost about £2K to buy/build. My 80's KT88 amp cost me £304 and I prefer the sound to a friend's £multiK valve monobloks. I have spent quite a lot of money on this hobby over the years to get where I am now though!

 

[Kt77]

The toroid thing was a single (rather surprising) experience. I did not intend to condemn all toroids by implication.

FWIW my entire system cost about £2K to buy/build. My 80's KT88 amp cost me £304 and I prefer the sound to a friend's £multiK valve monobloks. I have spent quite a lot of money on this hobby over the years to get where I am now though!

S-Man,

Dude, I took no offense from your post, as a matter of fact - I found it to be enlightening. As said, I merely try to point out to those whom are new to this and/or whom ask questions about components I've either owned or heard during my travels/journeys.

Pani, asked about Leben CS300 vs Almarro A318B, well I've owned the A318B ( $1.895 ) here in the states and have listened to most of the Leben gear included said amp - I just went on to say I enjoy my amp that happens to be build around said transformers - and felt as if 2 so-claimed experts were in fact trying to knock my choice - key word " My Choice ".

I'm happy for those guys whom can afford Kondo - Shindo Labs - Leben Electrics - Robert Koda - Border Patrol - CAT along with a few other more desirable upscale brands, yet I'm not going to ever knock what someone decides to pursue - as it comes down to their taste/budget, but I can stress to them what I've heard and how I hear it - if they wish to know my truths in the matter?, as some whom have written me - obvious understand my views and wish to hear more.

So, as mentioned - I'm here to help, not see others pursue the wrong route and be chasing this crap every other month or two regretting their choices, by not trusting in their ears/sense. It's not rocket science - either one system/component speaks to your Soul or it doesn't!.

As making a sound - doesn't have jack to do with playing " Music ".

S-Man, much respect - and we're cool.

Cheers,
scar

 

[Kt77]

Interestingly this does not seem to be case with Shindo or Devore O series speakers....

Hey wacko,

Well said, and valid point. But not everyone has experienced the Beauty of either DeVore - LM Audio nor Shindo Labs Speakers for that matter - so it's a given, I appreciate the rantings of those whom have.

And, I posted something up for you earlier - as a means of getting to you to think outside the box if you will.

Be good - Dude.
scar

 

[jaspert]

Talking of 'old school'. I use 1930s Voigt domestic corner horns (with modern drivers) and they murder modern box speakers..and stuff like the 57s, which are great and flawed at the same time. There has been no real progress in sound reproduction for many years. Modern commerce drove out quality in return for ever smaller boxes.

I would put your corner horn in the same basket, good and flawed.

 

[Pani]

An update:
I finally had an opportunity to listen to the Almarro 318B. I heard with a Harbeth LS 3/5A (very old model) and Almarro speakers. The general thought was, it is a fantastic amp and one of the best I have heard in many parameters. It is very transparent (way more than my 5i), very vivid tonal colours, very lively and open, well extended and controlled and very neutral. It betters the Leben amps when it comes to presenting "life" of instruments, possibly because of its SET thing. However IMO it doesnt groove, which the Leben does and of course Naim is king in that respect. It has a caressing sound which feels real but it wont make one sit up and dance to a tune. On some music it is okay not to be groovy but in my collection most of the music I listen is about swing and rhythm along with vocals. In that regards I got a feeling that if I buy the Almarro I will still be looking around for yet another amp. So at the moment the Leben seems more logical a choice (even though I will miss that verve and exuberance of tones that the Almarro had) but the likes of LM Audio still is open. Thanks anyway guys for your responses.

On one of the PFM threads I remember reading that Graaf amplifiers are amazing and could do the Naim thing as well. Anyone has any experience with Graaf ?

 

[Kt77]

Hi Pani,

Well, at least you've had the opportunity to hear it for yourself - and that's what matters. Now you might want to take into account - that as you get older your musical taste will in fact evolve and most of the music that you love today, might not be high on your priority list as time marches on! ( and it does - if one is lucky enough to get my age? ).

Today's drive - swing and vigor are tomorrows more refined acoustically based music like folk - jazz - classical, where you'll find it's more about balance along with a sense of a system stepping aside and allowing the note to flow more freely, as opposed to having it pick apart this or that individual strand. Like many listerners my age - we tend to get beyond the desire to get drawn into systems based upon the need to get up and dance - in so much as having said system have the capabilities of speaking to ones soul - much like having our wife's / girlfriends speak to us in that reassuring soft tone telling us it's okay to spend our hard earned dollars/pounds/yens on our components and at the end of the day, having her bend over your shoulder and kiss you on your ear gently as well as passionately.

Getting older/wiser one begins to appreciate such things in life - as we tend to take for granted during our youth. Life is about getting to a point where one is more cultures and/or refined.

But in regards to the tube integrated's that once was seen as the only alternative to the Naim sound were the amps produced by Tube Technology as I recall reading back in the 90's, yet I've been following the Graaf amps as well - as they seem to get a great deal of ink ( press/reviews ) as well.

In the end, I'm merely trying to give you a view on how your state will evolve - because trust me on this one - it will.

Happy Hunting and be open-minded while doing so.

Your friend from the West.
scar

 

[Kt77]

Hi Pani,

Read carefully - and know that there's a cheaper version being offered as well:

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/tube_technology_synergy_carbon.htm

Just something to crew on, as we say in America. But don't hold that against me - as my intentions are well meanth.

scar

 

[Rocketride]

Hi scar,
Have you ever audition Cary 300B SEI integated. Could you compare it with Almarro A318b? Your opinion could be very useful to me.

Thanx!

RR

 

[Kt77]

Hi scar,
Have you ever audition Cary 300B SEI integated. Could you compare it with Almarro A318b? Your opinion could be very useful to me.

Thanx!

RR

Hi RR,

Auditioned one..........., I used to owe one from say 1998/99. I purchased it half price from the guys that were the original owners of Audiogon whom once had a nice shop in Ann Arbor Michigan called Accutronics before closing it down at said time and dedicated their time to said site.

I'll put it like this - as cute as it was - and it was cute as a button, over time it just didn't do that emotional thing for me - my only regret upon selling it - is that I didn't take the pair of NOS 1980 WE 300B's out of it first and replace them with say a pair made by TJ or Sophia Electrics.

Last year a friend of mine borrowed one from a local shop as all they ask you to do is pay for shipping, anyways as compared to his DIY Audio Supply Billie 300B Mono's that used to retail for say $1.200 new - wiped the floor with the Cary that's now listed around $5.689 or thereabouts?.

Longer story shorter ( hard for me to do at times ) I'd say go with the Almarro A318B.............., and don't look back - it has a more direct - truer sound, drives my real world speakers which many true 8-9 w/pc 300B SET ones can't and besides the 300B SEI as many Cary amps are known for of late are designed to drive the power tubes real hard which caused them to burn out that much faster.

And from a purely musical standpoint - the A318B sounds lovely in that it's a SET in itself - but from an investment standpoint - I've always preferred the ideal of buying its power tubes at $80/pr vs anyone's say TJ Music 300B Mesh Plates at $389/quad or Sophia Electric's versions @ $425/quad.

When I had the A318B, I make it a habit to purchase at least a quad of power tubes every 2-3 months. At $160/quad when it only needs a pair made great sense to me. Once again - the A318B sounds better as well as simply put more reliable and cheaper to maintain.

And, I even found an old list of 6S_7 types tubes I used with it during my tube rolling venture with the A318B, so if you decide to get one?, I'd be more then happy to share my findings/recommendation on these " 2 " other tubes vs the 300B SEI ( " multiples " = extra cash ).

Trust me on this one - I've been there and wouldn't ever allow another Cary Audio product through the door even if it was free. And I mean that.

Regards,
scar

 

[square_wave]

Hey Pani,

You ought to listen to that Almarro with the Tannoy. It may actually groove

 

[GT]

Interestingly this does not seem to be case with Shindo or Devore O series speakers....

Any large cone will take a lot to control the cone properly. It is the laws of physics which applies to all electromagnetic devices, not just certain brands...

In layman's terms: A large cone produces a large back EMF (electromotive force) or back voltage which is travelling in the opposite direction to the signal back towards the amplifier as the cone moves backwards. The amplifier has to be able to over come this EMF and still drive the cone forward again with the next part of the signal.

 

[GT]

Hey wacko,

Well said, and valid point. But not everyone has experienced the Beauty of either DeVore - LM Audio nor Shindo Labs Speakers for that matter - so it's a given, I appreciate the rantings of those whom have.

And, I posted something up for you earlier - as a means of getting to you to think outside the box if you will.

Don't confuse thinking outside of the box with what is right and wrong, good and bad. You cannot get away from the laws of physics...

 

[Kt77]

Don't confuse thinking outside of the box with what is right and wrong, good and bad. You cannot get away from the laws of physics...

I'd wholeheartedly agree - but one should be allowed to buy whatever they wish - without feeling as if said item isn't up to someone's else's standards.

Some like Horns - some like Stats while others prefer Cones, the end result is Music " Good or Bad?, or oh so slightly Different ", but in the end it's up to the consumer to select with their ears - not their wallets based upon cost - nor concept - but what moves them?, as well as what fits into ones home.

One size/design with never fit everyones needs - or should we build our homes around a hugh pair of speakers driven with $60.000 mono-blocks and can't afford to pay the electric bill to hear either?. It's merely about one understanding their priorities - not trying to fit in with those well heeled few that can afford such luxuries in life - the ones I see here in the states as snobs whom are constantly trying to brag about how much they're invested in this or that component - that isn't put together properly and is easily beaten sound wise by an iPod through active speakers - who would've thunk it ( yes - I spelled that correctly as I intended to " Thunk " ).

Long like " Free Will ".

Peace out,
scar

 

[Singslinger]

Pani, it might be an idea to try a Class A amp.

I switched from a Naim SuperNait to a Sugden Masterclass Integrated for my ProAc D18s and much to my surprise found a big jump in PRaT, fullness of sound and detail.

The Sugden's 30w is, IMO, far superior to the Naim's 80w. Of course it costs around 40% more....

 

[Aussie1]

Hi RR,

Auditioned one..........., I used to owe one from say 1998/99. I purchased it half price from the guys that were the original owners of Audiogon whom once had a nice shop in Ann Arbor Michigan called Accutronics before closing it down at said time and dedicated their time to said site.

I'll put it like this - as cute as it was - and it was cute as a button, over time it just didn't do that emotional thing for me - my only regret upon selling it - is that I didn't take the pair of NOS 1980 WE 300B's out of it first and replace them with say a pair made by TJ or Sophia Electrics.

Last year a friend of mine borrowed one from a local shop as all they ask you to do is pay for shipping, anyways as compared to his DIY Audio Supply Billie 300B Mono's that used to retail for say $1.200 new - wiped the floor with the Cary that's now listed around $5.689 or thereabouts?.

Longer story shorter ( hard for me to do at times ) I'd say go with the Almarro A318B.............., and don't look back - it has a more direct - truer sound, drives my real world speakers which many true 8-9 w/pc 300B SET ones can't and besides the 300B SEI as many Cary amps are known for of late are designed to drive the power tubes real hard which caused them to burn out that much faster.

And from a purely musical standpoint - the A318B sounds lovely in that it's a SET in itself - but from an investment standpoint - I've always preferred the ideal of buying its power tubes at $80/pr vs anyone's say TJ Music 300B Mesh Plates at $389/quad or Sophia Electric's versions @ $425/quad.

When I had the A318B, I make it a habit to purchase at least a quad of power tubes every 2-3 months. At $160/quad when it only needs a pair made great sense to me. Once again - the A318B sounds better as well as simply put more reliable and cheaper to maintain.

And, I even found an old list of 6S_7 types tubes I used with it during my tube rolling venture with the A318B, so if you decide to get one?, I'd be more then happy to share my findings/recommendation on these " 2 " other tubes vs the 300B SEI ( " multiples " = extra cash ).

Trust me on this one - I've been there and wouldn't ever allow another Cary Audio product through the door even if it was free. And I mean that.

Regards,
scar

that's a bit harsh about Cary products Oscar. I have a Cary Dac and cd player and love them both.

 

[Kt77]

that's a bit harsh about Cary products Oscar. I have a Cary Dac and cd player and love them both.

Hi Paul,

It has been awhile since I've felt the need to response on many of the forums I once frequented over the last three months or so, as I've merely gotten my system to a point where I'm enjoying it and music so much, I listen more and more each day - yet, I felt the need to respond here, I'm not knocking the Cary products as a whole - as I've not owned, nor heard many of them in years, but having owned their CAD-300B SEI I merely felt that for the money, it could easily be bettered sound wise by much cheaper products.

It was one of those amps that sounded beautiful while I was auditioning it back in 1995 paired with a pair of ProAc Response One SCs, but of late technology has advanced to the point, were there are now several integrated's between $1.600 - $2.500 that to my ears are much more musically correct/accurate or balanced might actually be a better term?.

But in the end as always, it's what the end user is willing to except as musical vs the opinions of others - as most of us are opinionated at best, so in essences it all comes full circle to how things come together as a collective whole in terms of synergy that matters most.

Have a great Xmas by the way, and once again do contact me once you've made it home to the states, as I've some tubes for you to listen to.

Peace,
h

 

[olli]

Leben CS300 paired with the right speakers is just GREAT!!!