Directional cables. Explain??

[Lee T]

Cables carry a signal right?
So why on interconnect and speaker cables do you often see arrows pointing a certain way - to or from source or amp - how can this be?
Surely the signal will travel up the piece of cable the same way?

Nonsense or is there any fact or science to this?

Just wondered as moved house and setting it all up again - and keep seeing these arrows !

Isn't it to do with earthing on an interconnect at least, something to do with what end the drain wire is connected to the shield.

For example, early naim amps rely on the earth from the source to ground the amp, without the earth from the source connected through the interconnect it can produce hum through the speakers from earth loops produced by switch mode power supplies as I have experienced. The source needs to be connected to earth at the mains rather than being double insulated with only a 2 pin connection. The interconnect plays a part in this context. as far as early naim amps are concerned.

Naim sent me this information when I had an earth loop problem with a nait 3 coming from a switch mode power supply.

 

[kabayiri]

I use this directional coupler at work http://www.nardamicrowave.com/east/index.php?m=Products&e=list&categoryId=161

There is nothing in a conventional audio lead that is going to cause these transmission line effects at less than 1MHz

I was rather clutching at straws.

I think we need a working hypothesis as to the possible cause of directionality of cable contributing to 'better sound' before constructing any sort of experimental prototype cable.

The marketing hypotheses are all too convenient in my view. If the belief is that Pure copper produces better sound, than isn't it possible to construct an identical cable to a PCOCC one with impure copper, and to notice a definite deterioration in sound?

I've not experienced directionality making a difference, but it doesn't stop me lining up the arrows in the right direction...hmm, more fool me!

 

[Lee T]

I was rather clutching at straws.

I think we need a working hypothesis as to the possible cause of directionality of cable contributing to 'better sound' before constructing any sort of experimental prototype cable.

The marketing hypotheses are all too convenient in my view. If the belief is that Pure copper produces better sound, than isn't it possible to construct an identical cable to a PCOCC one with impure copper, and to notice a definite deterioration in sound?

I've not experienced directionality making a difference, but it doesn't stop me lining up the arrows in the right direction...hmm, more fool me!

As I imagine most do here which is most likely why there are so many pages to this thread.

I suggest everyone here claiming it's all nonsense have the said cables planted in their system with the arrows the "correct" way round.

 

[avole]

I was rather clutching at straws.

I think we need a working hypothesis as to the possible cause of directionality of cable contributing to 'better sound' before constructing any sort of experimental prototype cable.

The marketing hypotheses are all too convenient in my view. If the belief is that Pure copper produces better sound, than isn't it possible to construct an identical cable to a PCOCC one with impure copper, and to notice a definite deterioration in sound?

I've not experienced directionality making a difference, but it doesn't stop me lining up the arrows in the right direction...hmm, more fool me!

Here's a working hypothesis: purchaser gullibility.

 

[Lee T]

Here's a working hypothesis: purchaser gullibility.

I wager you do also

 

[avole]

I do what?

 

[Kraus]

Here's a working hypothesis: purchaser gullibility.

It seems fair to doubt if someone is correct in believing they hear a difference but, to some, it seems necessary to doubt their sincerity.

Naim have, for a long time now, ensured that each model is built with the same internal orientation of connecting wires by trimming the pre-cut lengths for the BOM to indicate which way they should be soldered.

They aren't quite so neurotic as to follow directionality to and from, say, the volume control - the intention is mainly to be an additional factor of consistency between manufactured units.

You probably didn't know that.

A triumph of marketing? My arse.

"Dr. Strangelove:
The whole point of the doomsday machine...is lost if you keep it a secret!"

 

[whatsnext]

Now you have made this known I wonder if it makes any difference to peoples buying choices.

I dislike Naim sound I think, so consistency is irrelevant. It can only improve buyer confidence though. What would be interesting is if any other manufacturer did the same.

 

[whatsnext]

People with perfect pitch have a hearing ability which is widely recognised as a human ability. It can be demonstrated and shared with others who have the same skill. Nothing to do with HiFi. A small number of people have this.

Hearing cable differences might be compared in it's exceptionally small numbers in a sample. Unlike perfect pitch it offers no benefit to others, is not easily verified and leads to ill feeling at worse when discussed.

If those that do hear cable differences of any magnitude choose to speak of it they seem to lack the realisation that most people dont which leads to the fun.

We are different but often fail to recognise it.

 

[davidsrsb]

The huge difference is that incorrect pitch exists and is easily demonstrated and measured. Most people who are not trained musicians just fail to learn to recognise it

 

[Steven Toy]

The huge difference is that incorrect pitch exists and is easily demonstrated and measured. Most people who are not trained musicians just fail to learn to recognise it

Apply the various harmonics and general harmonic/timbral/tonal structure, replicate it in a timely fashion or not, then identify the fundamental pitch. This isn't a binary thing; it's a spectrum ranging from yes through "meh" to not clear at all.

As for measuring this kind of thing, let's see the parameters first.

I was told at age 16 that I had perfect pitch. Whether I do now, so out of practice, is another matter.

 

[Joe Hutch]

Hearing cable differences might be compared in it's exceptionally small numbers in a sample. Unlike perfect pitch it offers no benefit to others, is not easily verified and leads to ill feeling at worse when discussed.

It is easily verified, but that involves the balls-achingly tedious process of blind testing. If someone can reliably identify cables 'wrongly' connected (i.e. arrows pointing in the wrong direction) without knowing how they're actually connected, then job done. Of course, proving cable directionality doesn't exist is impossible.

As for ill feeling, people just need to get a grip and/or a sense of proportion.

 

[whatsnext]

It is easily verified, but that involves the balls-achingly tedious process of blind testing. If someone can reliably identify cables 'wrongly' connected (i.e. arrows pointing in the wrong direction) without knowing how they're actually connected, then job done. Of course, proving cable directionality doesn't exist is impossible.

As for ill feeling, people just need to get a grip and/or a sense of proportion.

Thank you for dismissing my post. So ball aching is easy to you? Hear from you later about your easy findings.

You seem to side step the matter of if all people will hear a difference regardless of their hearing sensitivity. Not everyone has perfect pitch in a sample I suspect a small number. I suggest that only a small proportion of a sample will hear a difference between cables if the ball aching is exercised. Most just find it a laughable concept I suggest for various reasons.

One of the reasons such discussions are doomed to be a waste of time is the assumptions some make, myself included.

 

[Lee T]

I do what?

Let the signal flow as the arrows intend

 

[Lee T]

It is easily verified, but that involves the balls-achingly tedious process of blind testing. If someone can reliably identify cables 'wrongly' connected (i.e. arrows pointing in the wrong direction) without knowing how they're actually connected, then job done. Of course, proving cable directionality doesn't exist is impossible.

As for ill feeling, people just need to get a grip and/or a sense of proportion.

I hear differences but not enough to justify some of the magazine reviews euphoria regarding them, to say changing a cable from a standard giveaway to a £50 cable is as good as upgrading your hardware is a little silly, which some have claimed, I have never experienced this but have found that sometimes less is more whereas changing a speaker cable or interconnect has tweaked the sound to where I like it & snapped the sound into place so to speak.

I have never attempted to switch my cables round, there seems little point if I'm happy with the sound from my system, be it in the arrow direction or not, I don't see how changing the cable direction can make any difference but what do I know.

 

[Joe Hutch]

Thank you for dismissing my post. So ball aching is easy to you? Hear from you later about your easy findings.

You seem to side step the matter of if all people will hear a difference regardless of their hearing sensitivity. Not everyone has perfect pitch in a sample I suspect a small number. I suggest that only a small proportion of a sample will hear a difference between cables if the ball aching is exercised. Most just find it a laughable concept I suggest for various reasons.

One of the reasons such discussions are doomed to be a waste of time is the assumptions some make, myself included.

Sorry if I sounded dismissive. My point was simply that if person A claims to be able to hear directionality in cables, it's easy, if tedious, for him/her to verify that. Personally I have no need or desire to go through the process. If a cable's got arrows on it, I'll put them in the 'right' way round because it's no bother to do so, but without worrying that if I put them in the wrong way round by mistake everything will suddenly sound crap.

 

[Lee T]

Sorry if I sounded dismissive. My point was simply that if person A claims to be able to hear directionality in cables, it's easy, if tedious, for him/her to verify that. Personally I have no need or desire to go through the process. If a cable's got arrows on it, I'll put them in the 'right' way round because it's no bother to do so, but without worrying that if I put them in the wrong way round by mistake everything will suddenly sound crap.

That last sentence pretty much sums things up I feel.

The voice of reason from Joe Hutch which usually seems to be the case on pfm

 

[whatsnext]

Sorry if I sounded dismissive. My point was simply that if person A claims to be able to hear directionality in cables, it's easy, if tedious, for him/her to verify that. Personally I have no need or desire to go through the process. If a cable's got arrows on it, I'll put them in the 'right' way round because it's no bother to do so, but without worrying that if I put them in the wrong way round by mistake everything will suddenly sound crap.

Ok I exaggerated re dismissing.

I hear small differences mainly in I/C but after a while the difference reduces in significance so ain't worth talking about and PROBABLY very system dependant.

Speaker cables - the one exploration of costly cables was TQ Black which I instinctively disliked from the first track. I went mug and benefit of the doubt, let them burn in / out /all about prevailed. Glad to be rid of them. That thin wire sort of described the cable, thin and not pushing much other than some mid band.

If other want to spend their time and resources to tune by cable best of luck. Please resist the almost salesman like enthusiasm posts though.

I did put one pair in, one "right" arrow direction the other "wrong". Just didn't notice the arrows. A correction once realised - stuff all

 

[Dick Bowman]

I make a point of having my source components higher than the power amps, which are in turn placed over the speakers. That means the electrons only have to go downhill, which is a lot easier for them.

 

[Igloo Audio]

Cables carry a signal right?
So why on interconnect and speaker cables do you often see arrows pointing a certain way - to or from source or amp - how can this be?
Surely the signal will travel up the piece of cable the same way?

Nonsense or is there any fact or science to this?

Just wondered as moved house and setting it all up again - and keep seeing these arrows !

No such thing without be pedantic about it

Peter