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Dilemma: Klipsch Cornwall IV vs Tannoy Kensington SE

Just horrible to my ears, and absolutely murdered by the relatively humble Prima Luna EL34 amp I had at the time, but I’ve been around audio long enough to know there are no absolutes, plus taste is a huge factor; a lot of folk love systems I can barely stay in a room with.

Seem to remember we started with my £500 Ming-Da/Icon EL34 amp, then moved on to your Prima Luna, and finished with the Manley which sounded so lovely I ended up buying some Hereseys. They were broken, turned into a complete money pit and by the time I’d got them sorted, my daughter was on her way, and I was instructed to sell the valves and the massive speakers! I often miss them.
 
Seem to remember we started with my £500 Ming-Da/Icon EL34 amp, then moved on to your Prima Luna, and finished with the Manley which sounded so lovely I ended up buying some Hereseys. They were broken, turned into a complete money pit and by the time I’d got them sorted, my daughter was on her way, and I was instructed to sell the valves and the massive speakers! I often miss them.

I don’t remember the Ming Da being there, though the PL and Manley certainly worked well. I remember your lengthy Heresy journey now. It is highly amusing we both ended up with Heresys given just how bad they sounded when we walked into that room! They really could strip pant off the walls. I can’t remember where yours came from, but you got them first. I got mine a fair bit later from Andy831, they may even have been the ones we heard on that day, I can’t remember. There can’t be that many pairs floating about up here. I wish I’d still got them to be honest, they’d be great fun upstairs with the Leak TL12 Plus.
 
Mine came from Holland! They were Mark 2s. Andy got them from a theatre or lecture theatre or something if I recall. They were 1.5s. I remember replacing the crossovers with ones from Bob Crites, having a mid driver repaired twice, and still having a crunchy sound on piano mids. I bought two replacement drivers from Germany in the end, they took forever to arrive, and it took Markus S ringing them to get them to hurry up. Shortly after I got them singing Abi’s arrival was impending and they got their eviction notice! What was really annoying was that two weeks after I bought the Dutch ones, the ones we heard originally appeared in the classifieds here.
 
I just packed up the Kensington SE to return to the seller. I was a bit concerned, after getting used to its richness over the week. Then I reconnected the Cornwall and was immediately relieved. This speaker is so alive!!! There's such a sense of presence, dynamics, and motion. It may not have the richness than the Kensington did, but given my current amp, the decision is easy.

Next step (after returning the Kensington in the morning) is to arrange for a tube amp audition. That won't happen tomorrow, though, because after dropping off the speakers in Toronto, I'm off to Toronto audiofest, then back to London to see a matinee of Janne Mertanen playing classical piano at Aeolian Hall, then finally meeting a friend for a VIP experience of Brick Floyd (a Pink Floyd tribute band). That's enough for one day! :)
 
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I spoke with the fellow running the MoFi Electronics room at Toronto audiofest. I mentioned my dilemma, along with the advice that I change to a tube amplifier. Apparently he used to be involved with the distribution and sale of both Klipsch and Cornwall, so was intimately familiar with the sonic issue I was describing. He said that a tube power amp could do it, but having assembled hundreds of systems over the years, he felt that I would get better results overall with a tube preamp, keeping my solid state power amps as-is. It would get me the best of both worlds: the soundstage and sonic richness of tubes from the preamp, and the speed and control from the power amp. He also insisted that the damping factor wasn't necessarily the key aspect making them sound good, although it was part of the overall equation.

I asked him what pre amp he might suggest, and of course he needed to know my budget. I threw out the number CAD$5000 (about £3000), and he said I might find something on the used market that would fit that bill, but that the retail would be far in excess of that. I was surprised that he never encouraged me to buy something that he was selling.

So now my path isn't so clear. I'm still trying to arrange a power amp test, but now have to consider pre amps too.

Later I encountered another vendor at the show: ANK Audio Kits. They sell a variety of kits that you can assemble, which is right up my alley. Their L5 pre-amp certainly looks tidy and well-spec'ed. I've done some research, and it's not clear to me whether they are or were affiliated with Audio Note, but they certainly use many of their parts. I've also seen reports that their stuff comes from China. Curiously, one of the people deriding them was insisting that their offers were far below Audio Note, but that it was still as good or better than McIntosh. :D

There's a person here in town who's selling a bunch of McIntosh gear (both pre and power amps), basically in my budget. However, I've started reading that McIntosh has a particular sound that might not be my cup of tea. It's also one of those companies that loved for their visual style, but isn't always lauded for their sonics. (Visually, it's not really my thing--I prefer as little bling as possible.) Regardless, I'm may ask this fellow to come by with some of his gear, and we'll see whether any of this McIntosh gear floats my boat.

There's another chap a short drive away who has a BAT VK-33 pre-amp. This may be a better match for me (although I'm disappointed it's not black :rolleyes: ). The feature set and connection options seem like a good match for me, though.

One thing that bugs me is that tube gear is typically tall. You need a rack with very lofty shelves, or you plunk things individually throughout your room. I want it to squirrel it away in the corner, preferably reusing my 5-tier Mana rack. All of its shelves are the standard Naim height (because I acquired it back when I had a bunch of that). I know that Mana is often derided for its industrial aesthetic, but that's never bothered me. It's going into the corner, obscured by a bookshelf, not a visual centerpiece in the room.

That's the problem with separates--you really do need lots of space to house all of that gear.
 
Likewise I don’t think it will get you fully there as it can’t impact damping factor and solid state amps are just different things to valve amps (current vs. voltage etc etc). They just behave and sound different because they are different! I still suggest trying to borrow something quite small and simple e.g. a Prima Luna, Leben, Dynco or whatever.
 
IMO: The difference in sound is way smaller between a solid state and a valve pre than between a solid state and a valve power amplifier, especially if you consider SET.
 
IMO: The difference in sound is way smaller between a solid state and a valve pre than between a solid state and a valve power amplifier, especially if you consider SET.
Depending on the type of music you play I wouldn't necessarily recommend a typical SET for driving a 10", 12" or 15" cone, unless it is something using a 211 or similar.
 
You could always try lowering your damping factor by fitting a low value resistor in series with the speaker to hear the effect.
 
You could always try lowering your damping factor by fitting a low value resistor in series with the speaker to hear the effect.
I don't have any suitable resistors to try. I may get around to ordering some, but I suspect that I need to try a full amp to experience the real effect.
 
I tried the resistor thing about a decade or so. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t get that thing that is so right about a good valve amp.
 
I spoke with the fellow running the MoFi Electronics room at Toronto audiofest. I mentioned my dilemma, along with the advice that I change to a tube amplifier. Apparently he used to be involved with the distribution and sale of both Klipsch and Cornwall, so was intimately familiar with the sonic issue I was describing. He said that a tube power amp could do it, but having assembled hundreds of systems over the years, he felt that I would get better results overall with a tube preamp, keeping my solid state power amps as-is. It would get me the best of both worlds: the soundstage and sonic richness of tubes from the preamp, and the speed and control from the power amp. He also insisted that the damping factor wasn't necessarily the key aspect making them sound good, although it was part of the overall equation.

I asked him what pre amp he might suggest, and of course he needed to know my budget. I threw out the number CAD$5000 (about £3000), and he said I might find something on the used market that would fit that bill, but that the retail would be far in excess of that. I was surprised that he never encouraged me to buy something that he was selling.

So now my path isn't so clear. I'm still trying to arrange a power amp test, but now have to consider pre amps too.

Later I encountered another vendor at the show: ANK Audio Kits. They sell a variety of kits that you can assemble, which is right up my alley. Their L5 pre-amp certainly looks tidy and well-spec'ed. I've done some research, and it's not clear to me whether they are or were affiliated with Audio Note, but they certainly use many of their parts. I've also seen reports that their stuff comes from China. Curiously, one of the people deriding them was insisting that their offers were far below Audio Note, but that it was still as good or better than McIntosh. :D

There's a person here in town who's selling a bunch of McIntosh gear (both pre and power amps), basically in my budget. However, I've started reading that McIntosh has a particular sound that might not be my cup of tea. It's also one of those companies that loved for their visual style, but isn't always lauded for their sonics. (Visually, it's not really my thing--I prefer as little bling as possible.) Regardless, I'm may ask this fellow to come by with some of his gear, and we'll see whether any of this McIntosh gear floats my boat.

There's another chap a short drive away who has a BAT VK-33 pre-amp. This may be a better match for me (although I'm disappointed it's not black :rolleyes: ). The feature set and connection options seem like a good match for me, though.

One thing that bugs me is that tube gear is typically tall. You need a rack with very lofty shelves, or you plunk things individually throughout your room. I want it to squirrel it away in the corner, preferably reusing my 5-tier Mana rack. All of its shelves are the standard Naim height (because I acquired it back when I had a bunch of that). I know that Mana is often derided for its industrial aesthetic, but that's never bothered me. It's going into the corner, obscured by a bookshelf, not a visual centerpiece in the room.

That's the problem with separates--you really do need lots of space to house all of that gear.

A tube preamp doesn't need to be tall, mine certainly isn't (Concert Fidelity CF080), but obviously you'd rather select a preamp on how good it sounds rather than how tall or short it is.

About a year ago I auditioned five different tube based preamps all around a budget of £5k, which I appreciate is more than you're looking to spend but these were my findings:

Second hand items were easy to source and test as I simply used a national retailer of second hifi kit who was willing to facilitate home demo. From them I got an Audio Note M5, Conrad Johnson ACT One, some strange prototype unit from Dalby with one RCA input and a McIntosh C22.

I liked the Audio Note the best; smooth, musical and with a great sound stage but lacked speed and leading edge dynamics. The CJ Act One was overly bright and analytical, lots of detail but there was no musical engagement.

The McIntosh I thought by comparisson to the others was pretty meh. Nothing specifically wrong with it, I just wasn't at all impressed or enthused by what it was doing. The Dalby was dreadful....OK it had the sweetest most lovely mid band I'd ever heard but someone had clearly forgotten to include the bass in the prototyping stage.

I also got a brand new KR Audio P135, and an ex-dem Concert Fidelity CF080 from the former UK distributor.

The KR Audio is built around the 45 output tube, which is highly revered by many. That preamp was sublime, utterly and wonderfully gorgeous. It blew away everything else I'd heard to that point despite to costing half of what the AN, McIntosh and CJ amps cost new. It is a wonder at the price point, a true gem.

It will almost certainly get you that sweet, airy rich timbred midband you're looking for and it will do that for half what it might cost you else where. But, you will likely have to buy new as it's a new product and it's unlikely to be available second hand. I would have bought that amp save for the Concert Fidelity.

Now, this amp, in the UK at least, should have retailed for around £18,000! In the US the new price is listed as $22,000. The distributor's ex-demo model was I think five or six years old, but still was sold with new output tubes. It was another league on from the KR Audio and made the units I tried sound positively remedial. It had sweetness, richness, airy and open presentation, a vast sound stage etc, all the things you want a good preamp to do. But the part that blew me away was the speed of the thing; it's a hybrid tube design but it enabled my system to play with the kind of speed and attack you would expect from an all SS amplification set up; it was, is, quite remarkable.

One other insight I learned is that a tube preamp where you can source alternative output tubes, i.e. NOS or vintage examples of the output tubes, gives you the chance to roll and upgrade or even just fine tune the sound down the line. The CF unit uses 12au7s, which are readily available and can sound quite different between different manufacturers and vintages.
 
With the Cornwalls, and any high efficiency speaker for that matter you will have problems with too much gain if you use a preamp and a power amp together, unless it is designed for low gain, or for use with high efficiency loudspeakers. In this situation I would probably recommend a good integrated valve/tube amplifier. Otherwise you will encounter excessive noise (hiss and hum) and have very little control over the volume.
 
A tube preamp doesn't need to be tall, mine certainly isn't (Concert Fidelity CF080)

Likewise, mine is a JC Verdier Control B. I really like it as it sounds great, is very compact, not much bigger than a Quad 34, and surprisingly full featured (e.g. it has a proper tape loop with off tape monitoring, try finding that these days!). It also has a very good phono stage. It also highlights bargains are still out there as I only paid £600 second hand.

PS You need to try a little valve integrated amp first. Surely someone has a Prima Luna, Leben or something in Canada?!
 


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