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Calling Reel-2-Reel Tape experts - TEAC A3440 15ips speed problems

You'd need a distortion measurement to assess these meters.

Record 400Hz increasing in level from -3 VU to +6VU or wherever those meters go (I don't remember, haven't used that model ever since I was 16, making surround effects for a school theatre play!). Post the file here, and I have a go.

Unless you have a more direct method, of course.
 
You'd need a distortion measurement to assess these meters.

Record 400Hz increasing in level from -3 VU to +6VU or wherever those meters go (I don't remember, haven't used that model ever since I was 16, making surround effects for a school theatre play!). Post the file here, and I have a go.

Unless you have a more direct method, of course.
I'm still at the bottom of a very steep learning curve when it comes to tape decks, so your advice is very helpful. I'll record and post those files later today. Is the distortion measurement affected by the tape formulation? Perhaps I should record the 400Hz on both the Maxell UD and RTM LPR-90 formulations as these are the two tapes I'm most likely to use on this deck.

The meters on the A3440 only go up to +3dB and there are no peak LEDs which is a shame. Also, the meters lose accuracy at the bottom end of the scale. E.g. when monitoring source input, if I set all four meters at 0dBVU and then reduce the output of my signal generator by -10dB, the meters show -13dB (Ch1), -15dB (Ch2), -12dB (Ch3), -11dB (Ch4). Therefore I prefer to first match them at 0dBVU and then increase/decrease the strength of the signal generator to the desired level (this probably goes against convention but my signal generator is a computer program (REW) so I don't really know what the output voltage is anyway).

PS - When Alan serviced my Revox B77 he calibrated the VU meters to read 0dBVU with 250nWb and the peak LEDs to light up when levels exceed +6dB. I know it won't help with analysing distortion, but will using the B77 to play back a tape recorded on the A3440 at 0dBVU help to show the sensitivity of the A3440's VU meters, or can you already get this info from the 400Hz files I'm going to upload?
 
Only +3dB ... I was afraid of that.

This exercise will be of little use. You can record 400Hz at 0 and +3, that would be enough to estimate how far you are from 3% distortion. Just one tape is enough.

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I suppose you could use the B-77 to make sort of a reference tape at 0VU, then see where it plays back on the TEAC.

But why not have the TEAC serviced, or at least aligned?
 
Only +3dB ... I was afraid of that.

This exercise will be of little use. You can record 400Hz at 0 and +3, that would be enough to estimate how far you are from 3% distortion. Just one tape is enough.

--

I suppose you could use the B-77 to make sort of a reference tape at 0VU, then see where it plays back on the TEAC.

But why not have the TEAC serviced, or at least aligned?

My eyesight is crap.... the A3440's VU meters go up to +5dB ! :rolleyes:

Servicing the A3440 is the ultimate plan, but apparently a full strip down is very labour intensive and delicate procedure as the wiring is fragile and has a tendency to break. Perhaps I can persuade Alan to do a part-service / calibration some time next year ;).

Actually, I've had a look at the service manual. All of the calibration pots are easily accessed from the bottom panel, and the instructions seem pretty straight forward, so I could *in theory* attempt to do it myself, but I'd need to acquire suitable measurement equipment and learn how to use it, which I suspect will take some time. Also my main fear is encountering an unexpected problem that leaves the deck in a worse state than before I started tinkering with it...
 
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The A3440's VU meters are marked up to +5dB but the needles don't hit their end stop until +8dB, so I recorded 400Hz tones from -3dBVU up to +7dBVU. I recorded at both 7.5ips and 15ips.

Here are the files (68MB download):
https://we.tl/t-VqSdjphOYA

I was surprised to find that even the loudest +7dBVU 400Hz tone peaks at only -7.8dBFS in my ADC. The periodic pink noise I recorded at 0dBVU peaks at -5.4dBFS, while the section of music I recorded at an average of between -10dBVU and -5dBVU peaks at -5.1dBFS. I think it's going to take me some time to get my head around the relationship between analogue VU and digital peak meters and the way tape handles average and peak levels! :confused:
 
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I had a look at the 15ips signals. Distortion is purely third harmonic (magnetics), and a bit of second (electronics), which is nice.

0VU: left 0.22% right 0.21%
3VU: 0.39% 0.32%
6VU: 0.76% 0.62%
7VU: 0.97% 0.78%

There is no compression until 6VU, then it is a mere 0.1dB.
Right channel is 0.3dB quieter, left channel has more distortion (perhaps needs more bias).

For reference: cassette is assessed at 3% distortion, and at these levels nearly all tapes and heads show 1-2dB compression.

Edit: 7.5ips is much the same.
 
I had a look at the 15ips signals. Distortion is purely third harmonic (magnetics), and a bit of second (electronics), which is nice.

0VU: left 0.22% right 0.21%
3VU: 0.39% 0.32%
6VU: 0.76% 0.62%
7VU: 0.97% 0.78%

There is no compression until 6VU, then it is a mere 0.1dB.
Right channel is 0.3dB quieter, left channel has more distortion (perhaps needs more bias).

For reference: cassette is assessed at 3% distortion, and at these levels nearly all tapes and heads show 1-2dB compression.

Edit: 7.5ips is much the same.
Thanks Werner, it's great that you can deduce all this info from a simple test tone recording. :)

Would you mind analysing two more files please? The same tests as before but using Ch1 and Ch3 inputs and outputs instead of Ch2 and Ch4. As well as distortion and channel matching, I'm curious what you can tell me about the increased noise floor on these channels?

https://we.tl/t-F9PLISMPR2
 
W.r.t. response and distortion 1 and 3 are much like 2. 4 has a bit more treble.

Noise: 3 has some LF breakthrough, i.e. 50/100/150Hz transformer hum, and overall a bit more noise than 1.

1 and 2 have some crap around 1k and 10k, but 1 much more than 2.
 
I tried another experiment, - recording the same section of music +3dB, +5dB and +7dB higher level than before to see what happens to compression levels and subjective treble quality. For greater accuracy I varied the output level of the source (in Audacity software), not the A3440's input knobs. I also had to turn down my ADC's input level to avoid clipping.

The level of the original recording was set so that the VU meters only briefly touched 0dB and spent most time around -10dB to -3dB.
The +3dB recording had peak levels +2.8dB higher than the 0dB recording.
The +5dB recording had peak levels +4dB higher than the 0dB recording.
The +7dB recording had peak levels +5.1dB higher than the 0dB recording.

So if you want to retain full dynamics on the A3440 with Maxell UD tape, it seems aiming for the VU meters to hit a maximum of +3dB is a safe approach and improves SNR a little compared to keeping levels below 0dB. If on the other hand, you don't mind a bit of compression, then you can drive the meters pretty hard into the red. However, it's probably not good for the health of the VU meters to have them hitting their end stops, so if recording hot it might be worth re-calibrating the meters so that 0dBVU = 250nWb instead of 185nWb? (I'm assuming 0dBVU on the A3440 = 185nWb, I'll be able to confirm this when I playback a tape recorded on the A3440 using my B77).

EDIT - Upon closer analysis of the waveforms I'm not sure it's as simple as saying the amount of dynamic compression increases as the recording level increases, at least not in the way you'd expect a typical digital compressor to act. E.g. the initial snare strike is actually louder on the 0dB recording than it is on the +3dB, +5dB and +7dB recordings. Tape compression is more nuanced than I thought!

Also, I could be wrong but there doesn't appear to be any loss of HF in the +7dB recording compared to the 0dB recording, if anything the +7dB has more HF energy thanks to the compression?

It's probably unnecessary but I've uploaded the files in case anyone wishes want to hear what the different recording levels sound like. I've included the 0dB to +7dB recordings as a single file with levels untouched, and also shorter versions in separate files that I've normalised to 0dBFS using Audacity:

Full version (300MB):
hhttps://we.tl/t-4PIM7m7Mt4

Shortened normalised versions (50MB):
https://we.tl/t-6SePSEwI2T
 
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I played back the 400Hz tones recorded on the A3440 using the Revox B77. The tones that register 0dB on the A3440's meters register between -7 and -6 on the B77's meters, and the tones that register +7dB on the A3440's meters register between 0 and +1 on the B77's meters, so there's a differential of about 6dB between the two decks.

If the B77's meters are calibrated for 250nWb/m at 0dB, this suggests the A3440 is calibrated for around 125nWb/m at 0dB, not 185mWb/m? :confused:
This probably explains why the A3440's distortion and compression levels are so low even when the meters are hitting +7dB!
 
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@Werner, Assume I have a 4-track deck (e.g. A3440) and a 2-track deck (e.g. B77) both calibrated for 250nWb/m at 0dBVU. If I record a 0dBVU signal on all 4 tracks of the tape on the 4-track deck and play it back on the 2-track deck, should the 2-track deck's VU meters register 0dBVU or +6dBVU?

EDIT - After reading this very confusing thread it seems I cannot use a 2-track deck to infer the dBVU levels of a tape recorded on a 4-track machine like the A3440 since all 4 tracks cannot align perfectly with the 2-track PB head.
 
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You should ask Alan about mapping 4 track and 2 track layouts. He may know, or he may run an experiment. The only relevant gear I have access to is an armchair.

But then, as meters can have any arbitrary alignment this still won't tell you much.
 
@Werner, Assume I have a 4-track deck (e.g. A3440) and a 2-track deck (e.g. B77) both calibrated for 250nWb/m at 0dBVU. If I record a 0dBVU signal on all 4 tracks of the tape on the 4-track deck and play it back on the 2-track deck, should the 2-track deck's VU meters register 0dBVU or +6dBVU?

EDIT - After reading this very confusing thread it seems I cannot use a 2-track deck to infer the dBVU levels of a tape recorded on a 4-track machine like the A3440 since all 4 tracks cannot align perfectly with the 2-track PB head.

The short answer to your question is that a 4 track tape recorded to the same flux level will always playback at a lower level than a 2 track stereo tape when played on a 2 track stereo machine.

There are two reasons for this :-

1) The total track width of 2 tracks of a 4 track tape is less than 1 track of a 2 track tape.

2) The inner (2 and 3) tracks of a 4 track tape do not fully line up with the tracks of a 2 track stereo tape due to the smaller guard band between tracks 2 and 3 compared with the two track tape.

The actual drop in level is directly proportional to the width of the scanned tracks.
 
You should ask Alan about mapping 4 track and 2 track layouts. He may know, or he may run an experiment. The only relevant gear I have access to is an armchair.

But then, as meters can have any arbitrary alignment this still won't tell you much.

I don't really understand what is trying to be achieved here TBH, one machine is a multitrack recorder, 4 tracks all in the same direction and the other is a 2 track machine they are never going to be compatible with each other so why waist time on it.
The only thing that should play back at the same levels would be a 250nWb/m full track mono calibration tape, NAB EQ and that is if the 3440 is calibrated for 250 nWb/m if it is set to 150 or 185nWb/m then the levels will be higher on the 3440.
You can use a cal tape to set the playback levels and Azimuth if you have an oscilloscope.
To set the meter cal, input , record / replay levels you will need a good signal generator and Ideally an AC voltmeter that will stay at the same level throughout the frequency range
Most Digital meters are only accurate up to 1K then the level fails as you get higher in frequency
If you are using a laptop as a signal generator you have to double check that the output level of the sign wave is actually at the correct level as software and sound cards can mess things up.
Alan
 
I don't really understand what is trying to be achieved here TBH, one machine is a multitrack recorder, 4 tracks all in the same direction and the other is a 2 track machine they are never going to be compatible with each other so why waist time on it.
The only thing that should play back at the same levels would be a 250nWb/m full track mono calibration tape, NAB EQ and that is if the 3440 is calibrated for 250 nWb/m if it is set to 150 or 185nWb/m then the levels will be higher on the 3440.
You can use a cal tape to set the playback levels and Azimuth if you have an oscilloscope.
To set the meter cal, input , record / replay levels you will need a good signal generator and Ideally an AC voltmeter that will stay at the same level throughout the frequency range
Most Digital meters are only accurate up to 1K then the level fails as you get higher in frequency
If you are using a laptop as a signal generator you have to double check that the output level of the sign wave is actually at the correct level as software and sound cards can mess things up.
Alan
I was trying to deduce what nWb/m my A3440's VU meters are calibrated for by using my Revox's B77 VU meters as a reference, before I realised the two tape formats are incompatible wrt levels so my previous few posts can now largely be ignored as they contain a lot of nonsense! :D

I've spent the last couple of days soaking up as much info as I can from the tapeheads site. Steep learning curve but it's fascinating stuff. Lots of disagreement too wrt the best way to calibrate, which is rather frustrating for a newbie seeking black and white answers, but I guess few answers are ever black and white!

EDIT - @337alant, do you know what the A3440's output knobs supposed to be set at during normal playback? The owners manual mentions "setting them at around 7", while the service manual instructs that they be set at 8 for calibration. I set mine at max (i.e. 10) for playback so that I know the left & right channels are both set exactly the same, but I suspect this is probably too high because at this setting the A3440 plays through my amp at exactly the same volume as the B77. I took measurements of the A3440's output to see how much attenuation is applied to the signal at each setting:

10 = max (0dB)
9 = -2.2dB
8 = -6.3dB
7 = -12.0dB
6 = -15.1dB
5 = -18.3dB
 
There`s a degree of duff and / or misleading information on that site as well as some good stuff. It can be difficult to work out which is which.
 
EDIT - @337alant, do you know what the A3440's output knobs supposed to be set at during normal playback? The owners manual mentions "setting them at around 7", while the service manual instructs that they be set at 8 for calibration. I set mine at max (i.e. 10) for playback so that I know the left & right channels are both set exactly the same, but I suspect this is probably too high because at this setting the A3440 plays through my amp at exactly the same volume as the B77. I took measurements of the A3440's output to see how much attenuation is applied to the signal at each setting:

It should be calibrated with the volume level set to 8 for 0dBU 0.775V then you have a little extra volume if you need it (+4dBU)

Alan
 
I've spent the last couple of days soaking up as much info as I can from the tapeheads site. Steep learning curve but it's fascinating stuff. Lots of disagreement too wrt the best way to calibrate, which is rather frustrating for a newbie seeking black and white answers, but I guess few answers are ever black and white!

Here are the basic steps for calibrating a machine, however you should allways follow the service manual for specific steps and levels associated with the actual machine :-

Before starting check the 1k output @ 0.775dBU from your signal generator with an AC Volt meter and cross ref on your Scope even an TRMS DVM will be accurate @ 400hz and maybe 1K
Input / Output levels
Using a signal generator with a 1K test tone @ (check your manual) 0.775 VRMS or 0dBu check the output of your signal gen with a calibrated meter then plug it in the input of the machine and set the machine to monitor input
Check the output of the machine so that it reads what the manual says and where it says to check it from, for this example lets say it should be exactly the same as the input which is correct for most machines, however it also depends if the machine has a CAL button setting?, if not then the level vol control for each channel needs to be set in a certain position normally 7 or 8
If the output level is not reading correct then check the manual for which pot to adjust for the output level
Now look at the VU meters and they should be reading 0VU, if not adjust the meters again check the manual for a adjustment pot.
OK now your machine is set for the correct input and output and your meters are reading 0VU.

Playback levels.
Now load your MRL Calibration test tape, I like to run this onto 10" spools to keep the tape tension correct
make sure your machine is in safe and set to monitor output with an analogue AC volt meter
Play the tape, 1k tone at 0dBu and adjust the playback level pot so the VU meters read 0VU , check your manual as some older decks use 400hz or 700hz as the ref playback level.
Now you can adjust the Azimuth of the playback head using the 1K & 10K tone, plug your oscilloscope into the output or monitor out for both channels, set the scope for AC and adjust so both sine waves overlay each other perfectly and take up approx 80% of the screen adjust the azymuth screw on head with a non magnetic screw driver or allen key and adjust for the maximum level and even output for both channels. start with the 1k tone then fine adjust with the 10K, when you get that correct switch the scope into XY mode and check you should have line which slopes upwards at 45 deg from bottom left to top right if its an o shape its 90 deg out of phase if its laying to the left its 180 deg out of phase see picture below.
Now you can adjust the Playback HF EQ, now on decks like my studer A810 or tascam br20 I can do that at 0dBU level and the tape will not saturate with modern tape
But on older machines like a B77 / A77 you will find that the 10K and 16K signals are at -10dB so the tape doesn't saturate and give you a false reading so check your reference tape.
play the 10K tone (-10dB) and set the AC volt meter to -10dB with the HF EQ trim pot The VU meter should also read -10VU
If the test tape has a 16K tone play that and it should read the same as 1K and 10K tweak the EQ and playback levels to get this as flat as possible.
If your machine has a LF adjustment pot play the 100hz tone and again set for the same level as 1K

Record levels
remove your test tape and store it in a safe place away from mains leads and any magnetic sources
Load the tape you wish to use for calibration lets say LPR35 or LPR90 and connect an AC Volt meter at the output
Connect your signal gen to both channels set the machine to record and monitor the input and input a 1K signal @ 0.775 Vrms the meters should both read 0VU still
Switch to monitor output and select Record&Play, the meter should read the same, if not adjust the record level pots.

Now check the Record head alignment Azimuth with the machine in monitor output so you are listening to the playback head, now play a 10K tone @ -10dB and adjust the Record head azimuth so you get the maximum reading even on both channels and monitoring the sine wave on the scope at the output as you did for the playback head.
Now with the same 10K tone @ -10db hit play and record and we are going to adjust the record Bias level (not the bias traps do not touch those pots)

On one channel at a time turn the bias pot down by turning anti clock wise the VU meter should start to rise peak then fall as you are still turning anti clockwise when it falls then start turning it clockwise until it peaks and note the peak point now you are going to overbias form that peak point by continuing to turn clockwise the meter should fall, keep turning until the you have overbiased by the amount stated by the tape manufacturer for that speed so for LPR35 that is 4.0dB from the peak point, this should give the lowest distortion for that tape at that speed.
Don’t worry if the bias peaks are not exactly the same for each channel that is normal
After adjusting the record bias and azimuth go back and check the 1K record playback as it might need a tweak
now with the same 10k tone @-10dB adjust the HF record EQ so the output levels read the same as the 1K level.
do the same with a range of HF levels I like to sweep from 1K to 20K and get the flattest frequency response.
For record bass you will probably find there is no record bass adjustment but if there is then record a 100hz tone adjust the LF “Playback” level until it is the same as 1K

Record some music and pour out a nice glass of red wine and listen to it
Hope this helps :)

Alan
 


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