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Audiosmile BBC style Monitor

Robert said:
One idea we looked at a while ago was a 10" bass driver centrally mounted on the (wide) baffle, with an isoplanar strip array running the length of the cabinet, ie the bass driver sits behind the mid/treble panel.. You can do that with a low crossover point.
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Now that sounds extremely interesting.
Would it be correct to assume that the isoplanar strip array provides some beam-forming?
Assuming it does (and the picture in my head is the correct one...), that would give both tightly controllable directivity from the array and (mainly marketing?) benefits from a near point-source layout.
The more I think about it, the more interesting this sounds!
Can I have mine in JBL Blue please?
 
This is all extremely interesting to me. I'm not technical, but I would say I am your target market, since I love the Harbeth/Spendor approach but have some niggling issues with each of the current models. Personally I would prefer something that is sized closer to Harbeth C7, Spendor SP2/3, but if I could get an SP1 type speaker (slightly narrower than SHL5's) that worked in my room that would be fantastic. Some points;

1) I wouldn't want more volume. What I would like is for it to go down to, say, 28 Hz comfortably and with more general bass definition than the SHL5's. I get the impression this might be a big challenge with BBC boxes. The C7's have tighter bass than the SHL5's, but they also have less of it.

2) My main niggle with the C7 ES3 speakers, which I'm using currently, is what I perceive as a slight recess in the upper bass to lower mids. Compared to the SHL5's this is what makes the larger speaker 'warmer' in presentation, and the C7 leaner. Presumably this is one of the qualities that makes people say the C7 is more 'modern. Since you have used that word, I'd like to know a bit more about what you mean by modernity in this context.

3) Slightly tangential, but I'm still not so convinced by Tony's hypothesis that the off the shelf SEAS domes in the SHL5 (and the older C7ES2) are a problem. The C7ES3 sounds very good in that region using the same tweeter, whilst I had problems in my room with the highs when I tried the SHL5's. The C7 ES3 has a completely redesigned crossover, which I would imagine has addressed some of the problems that Tony had with both Harbeths C7ES2 and SHL5. But more fundamentally I feel that that it is much more difficult to get the 5's working in a medium sized room in such a way that the drivers seem integrated and the frequency response balanced, in spite of Harbeth's claims about easy room compatibility. If you are going to address these problems, that would be fantastic. How much does the implementation of a super-tweeter make for greater difficulties in this respect?

4) The above relates to another of Tony's points about the ideal BBC box being Spendor up top and Harbeth down below. When I was fretting about my upper bass/lower mid problem with the C7's I went to hear some Spendor SP2/3r2. My issue was that with a cello sonata the depth of the cello was losing out to the sparkle of the right hand of the piano. The situation was pretty much reversed with the Spendor. Definitely a deeper sound on the lower end of the cello, but clearly lacking the speed of the Harbeth Radial driver. Not a rigorous test; different room, sources, everything, but it fits with most people's reports.

4) Lastly, I used to use a Canadian variation on the BBC tradition; Energy Pro 22's. I still have them, but they sound pretty shrill in the highs and all round lacking refinement. Crude compared to Harbeths, but they went much deeper in the bass (down to 28Hz, hence my request above) and have a classic BBC mid-range and some charm. They were a 2 way with a very different crossover strategy; going up at 1.5KhZ. As I said, I'm not technical, but I presume this gave the bass driver time to concentrate on letting loose in the subs. What kind of crossover strategy did you have in mind for your version of the Sp1's?
 
Robert said:
Thanks Joel.

Most on that list can be combined with a thin-wall cabinet, so a bit of the old and the new.
One idea we looked at a while ago was a 10" bass driver centrally mounted on the (wide) baffle, with an isoplanar strip array running the length of the cabinet, ie the bass driver sits behind the mid/treble panel.. You can do that with a low crossover point.
That's do-able just about in a classic 12x12x24" cabinet or something a little larger such as NS1000 cab.
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Wasn't there a Musical Fidelity speaker in that mould? Some of the Apogee hybrids also were along these lines.

A line array for hf will be a challenge to marry to a 10" driver unless you manage to cross very low. I doubt this will be doable on your budget.
 
Elephantears said:
3) Slightly tangential, but I'm still not so convinced by Tony's hypothesis that the off the shelf SEAS domes in the SHL5 (and the older C7ES2) are a problem.
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In fairness neither am I. All I know is there is something I found annoying in the upper mid / low treble. It was there with all four amps I tried, yet was simply not there with high quality headphones driven directly from the speaker output, nor with big old Tannoys, nor with Heresys, nor with ProAcs, i.e. there is something about the speaker itself that I hear and personally don't like. Whether that is the tweeter, the crossover, or the bass-driver, or any combination thereof, or even just the voicing I have no idea, and it would be entirely wrong of me to speculate as I simply do not have the knowledge or expertise. It's a shame as this single issue aside I felt the HL5 was a simply stunning loudspeaker, but as soon as I'd focused in on it and realised I couldn't fix it upstream I knew they had to go. It is worth pointing out that I seem quite exceptionally critical of crossovers etc - stick one anywhere in a speaker and I'll hear it and almost certainly not like it.

To be honest I feel awkward even commenting about this, I make a very conscious point never to "review" current hi-fi kit. I feel it is completely at odds with the role of site owner, and I'd be mortified if anyone placed any weight on anything I might say, but when I read comments about myself on other forums I feel an urge to set the record straight. That anyone would think I'd not even bother to try another amp when I'd just sunk so much cash on a speaker is just bizarre! FWIW I have three amps lying around the house (PL, Quad, Rega), and Rob brought up his 34/306 as IIRC that's what they were designed with. Anyway, I'm now safely back in the apolitical world of vintage kit so hopefully I can dive back under the radar again!

I'm very interested to see what Rob and Simon come up with here as there is something very special about the two foot by one foot BBC boxes IMO.

Tony.
 
I think that you should put your Bank-Manager hat on and ask yourself if the World really needs another box loudspeaker.

Think outside the box - be innovative ... revolutionary, even.
 
Markus S said:
A line array for hf will be a challenge to marry to a 10" driver unless you manage to cross very low. I doubt this will be doable on your budget.
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I don't see why not. It's doable in the PA world, though not especially cheap. And PA systems tend to require much more sophistication and engineering than a simple home audio system.
 
Patrick Dixon said:
I think that you should put your Bank-Manager hat on and ask yourself if the World really needs another box loudspeaker.
Click to expand...

There is actually very little choice out there if you want a proper loudspeaker-shaped loudspeaker with loudspeaker-sized drivers in it. Nearly everything is narrow baffle and floor-standing these days.

Someone really should make an AR3A / NS1000 IMO, i.e. a sensibly proportioned sealed 3-way stand-mount with a 12" bass unit. To my knowledge there is nothing of this genre on the market at all.

Tony.
 
Lots to look at there - thanks chaps.

More comment later but briefly.

- From what I heard of the HL5, I doubt any problem with drivers, more the chosen crossover. I'm of the same view as Tony on how they sound, and it isn't like the speaker from which they descended IMO. The mids are superb on the 3/6 - very nearly as good as ESLs IMO and I can play them back to back.

- To clarify the isoplanar array idea, I mean vertical array.
Picture the ESL57. Central mid/top panel flanked by bass panels.
Now picture a 12" baffle, set back a few inches into the cabinet with centrally mounted 10" woofer. Then picture a series of stacked isoplanar mid/top running the length of the baffle, across the centre of the bass driver, and flaring out slightly at the top and bottom- curving in effect like the ESL panel. The isoplanar drivers are larger versions of those used for the tweeter in the Kensai. Used in a multiple of say 5, a low crossover at 500=700Hz shouldn't be a problem. The drivers have a lens of sorts which effectively reduces radiating area with rising frequency, maintaining good lateral dispersion.

The issue we have is the need to load the isoplanar drivers with a rear chamber, so the bass driver has to be recessed somewhat, possibly making the cabinet a little deeper than a 12".
 
Robert said:
- From what I heard of the HL5, I doubt any problem with drivers, more the chosen crossover. I'm of the same view as Tony on how they sound, and it isn't like the speaker from which they descended IMO.
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Can you expand on that (how they sound to you), and perhaps suggest what conditions you've heard them in? So is your main aim to get a better mid-range performance?
 
Elephantears said:
Can you expand on that (how they sound to you), and perhaps suggest what conditions you've heard them in? So is your main aim to get a better mid-range performance?
Click to expand...

I don't want to knock Harbeth, but I heard Tony's HL5s at length when I visited for a couple of days earlier this year.
I heard a phasey and indistinct quality around the crossover, similar to what you might get where the drivers are out of relative phase but not that bad.
With sibilance this tended to 'shush' rather than sss. I'm making this sound worse than it is in reality - there are plenty of speakers that really fluff this area.
The old Rogers managed to avoid this, as does the C7ES2 I owned for a while. It is something you really notice after hearing ESLs, which of course don't cross at all in that range.

Other areas where I think we could move forward on the old designs (while retaining the good bits - ie the cabinet work and balance) are sensitivity and bass quality.
The old troopers get a bit wayward at the bottom when you push them
 
Robert said:
I don't want to knock Harbeth, but I heard Tony's HL5s at length when I visited for a couple of days earlier this year.
I heard a phasey and indistinct quality around the crossover, similar to what you might get where the drivers are out of relative phase but not that bad.
With sibilance this tended to 'shush' rather than sss.
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Ok, but I still think you should hear them in a completely different set-up before you make your mind up, even if you did try a couple of different amps. The SHL5's were completely different when I heard them in shop demos from when I had them at home, not because of clever room treatments in the shops but because they had lots of space (as well as very good sources).

I think its important that you hear the 5's (and maybe Sp1/2r) in a larger space. If you find, as I did, that they have a hugely better performance when they have a lot of space to breathe, that might focus what you want to offer as an alternative.
 
Robert said:
- To clarify the isoplanar array idea, I mean vertical array.
Picture the ESL57. Central mid/top panel flanked by bass panels.
Now picture a 12" baffle, set back a few inches into the cabinet with centrally mounted 10" woofer. Then picture a series of stacked isoplanar mid/top running the length of the baffle, across the centre of the bass driver, and flaring out slightly at the top and bottom- curving in effect like the ESL panel. The isoplanar drivers are larger versions of those used for the tweeter in the Kensai. Used in a multiple of say 5, a low crossover at 500=700Hz shouldn't be a problem. The drivers have a lens of sorts which effectively reduces radiating area with rising frequency, maintaining good lateral dispersion.
Click to expand...
I see now. Slightly similar to what Gethain do when placing the mid/tweeter on a strip in front of the woofer. Very interesting.
 
I think a modern NS1000 replacement would appeal. I've found nothing that tempts me to even consider changing mine in 27 years
 
It's pretty difficult to see what they do from that site!

Absolutely dreadful - fancy close-up photography but extremely un-informative. I wonder how many companies actually measure the effectiveness of their sites (other than where they come in the Google rankings).
 
I've been a Spendor BC1 user since 1981. Own 2 pairs, the first '78 vintage, which had the mid/bass drivers rebuilt by Terry Miles of Spendor.
The 2nd pair, '79 vintage, are still as new.
Both pairs have no signs at all of loose/overblown bass.
Used them with well over a dozen amps.
I've also owned Harbeth Compact ES2 and had the SHL5 on home loan.
Much preferred the Compacts but let down by the alu tweeter....
The Radial compound does make them sound fast and more detailed.
The SHL5 were placed in the same position as the BC1 on stands.....
Bass was boomy and the alu supertweeter was piercing.
Much preferred my old Wharfedale Dovedale 3s and original Kef Concertos!

For a modern take on the LS3/6....
how about using the slightly wider SHL5 cabinet size in order to house a 12" driver,
but is that going to be a mid/bass driver with soft dome tweeter and supertweeter?
Or a conventional 3 way?

And how is that going to compare sonically with the SP1/2R, which with stands are now c. £4k?
 
A lot of folk don't have large lounges these days that allow speakers to have several feet of breathing space behind them.
As suggested earlier a speaker that can do decent bass and does not boom when placed close to a rear wall in a normal domestic living room situation.
 
Not sure you want to go there , because "BBC style" conjures up a slow boring sounding speaker. I think you have the resources to do better , the Kensai is certainly not BBC style in the stereo type (pun). Yep a speaker to fit a room is better, not an anechoic chamber.
 
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