Audiosmile BBC style Monitor

[Robert]

This has been an idea on the back burner for a while now.
Some initial testing took place and we deconstructed a rather nice Rogers LS3/6 to gain more insight into what makes these things tick.

If we could offer say a modern version of the Spendor BC1/SP1/Rogers LS3/6, would there be any interest?

In other words a traditionally styled BBC voiced large stand mount but with higher power handling, better control at the very bottom end, lower distortion and, importantly - dB sensitivity in the upper 80s and a benign load. Birch ply damped cabinets and the traditional format of 8" bass/mid, large tweeter dome with smaller upper tweeter.

We think it can be done, but would people want it?

 

[mudlark]

I would be interested, but at what price?

 

[Robert]

I expect they'd come in at £2.5k- ish.

 

[Joe Hutch]

That seems rather a lot, especially in such a crowded marketplace.

 

[cooky1257]

Maybe it's just me but 'BBC voiced' and loud just don't go together at all-it sounds nice at polite volume but crank it and its unpleasant.

 

[Robert]

That seems rather a lot, especially in such a crowded marketplace.

Very low volume production, very high quality build (all uk). Cabinet true to BBC principles, ie birch ply (not mdf) and screwed on front and rear baffles.
That's about the price of a Harbeth HL5.

Other than Harbeth I can't think of any others in that market.

Proac perhaps but they don't follow the BBC model.

Maybe it's just me but 'BBC voiced' and loud just don't go together at all-it sounds nice at polite volume but crank it and its unpleasant.

Certainly not suggesting something that will be a dB monster - just something that will go loud enough for most, on a small power amp, without sounding stressed.

 

[joel]

Sounds like a nice idea, but it is a crowded market!
How about an updated version of the AR-3?

 

[Tony L]

Other than Harbeth I can't think of any others in that market.

Proac perhaps but they don't follow the BBC model.

The Spendor SP1/2 is probably the most obvious competitor, it's the current BC1 really. A friend had a pair and they certainly have that nice open clean top and mid of the BC1, though they are a little wooly down below. I reckon if you sawed a pair of SP1/2s and a pair of SHL5s in half and kept the top of the former and bottom of the latter you could make a very, very good loudspeaker.

As I said on ZG I'd be inclined to make a proper three-way and that's a very nicely sized box to do it in. My hunch would be to go for a really decent small near-to-full-range driver, maybe something like the bass-mid from the Kensai, run it as wide band as possible and top and tail it with a super-tweeter and a decent 8" bass.

Tony.

 

[Robert]

As I said on ZG I'd be inclined to make a proper three-way and that's a very nicely sized box to do it in. My hunch would be to go for a really decent small near-to-full-range driver, maybe something like the bass-mid from the Kensai, run it as wide band as possible and top and tail it with a super-tweeter and a decent 8" bass.

Tony.

That can be done and is a possibility.
We can get scaled-up versions of the Kensai isoplanar tweeter to cover say 700Hz up to 10kHz, possibly a bit higher.

Topping and tailing the Kensai bass-mid is effectively what the the Advantage brings. That adds a pair of actively driven 7" bass drivers in a sealed box. It now also drives the Kensai via internal amp, unlike the original so it really does become a complete 3 way speaker.

We wanted something quite different with the BBC style speaker.

Interested in all comments though so keep them coming please.

 

[Robert]

How about an updated version of the AR-3?

love to do that and really like many of the ARs.

They had the advantage of producing their own drivers which I'm sure made the results special using the very minimal crossovers.

 

[TheDecameron]

We think it can be done, but would people want it?

Mr. Shaw might not want it, nor Mr.Swift for that matter

 

[TheDecameron]

That seems rather a lot, especially in such a crowded marketplace.

Joe are you angling for an early adopter discount?

 

[Joe Hutch]

Joe are you angling for an early adopter discount?

No; I don't actually need another pair of speakers and couldn't afford anything like £2.5k even with a discount.

I just think that a new bookshelf speaker has to be different in some way because there are so many 'me too' designs out there.

 

[Tony L]

We wanted something quite different with the BBC style speaker.

I'm interested in why you'd want to use the two tweeter design of the BC1? What advantage do you think it brings given that finding a tweeter that will run from 2-20khz should not be an issue these days. I'd always prefer one good tweeter than two cheap ones, and I'd have loved to hear the SHL5s with something like a SEAS Excel soft dome in place of the H398 and Vifa metal domes.

Tony.

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

I seem to remember from my old marketing course, that if you already have something in the marketplace and wish to compete with it, that you need to be either:
- cheaper
- better
Relating to that, by cheaper, you also need to take into account the fact that Harbeth/Spender have a very solid reputation, and thus associated resale values. So as a fairly new company, you'd need to be substantially cheaper.

Strikes me that you need to think a bit more out of the box and less of the "clone". Some thoughts being:
- A BBC style monitor using the snazzy looking tweeter in the kensai
- Consider the use of real wood, as against "veneer". that's pretty rear nowadays and might give the product a USP that is pretty rare. Sure, it would add to the price, but personally I like real wood and hate veneer kicking around the house. For ref, the front baffle of my Ta'us uses a big slab of real maple, looks lovely.
- Clearly you have a lot of experience with room acoustics. What about a product that is less susceptible to typical room influences?
- Relating to the above, what about one that is sold with a unit like the DEQ2496, so that you can plug a digital source in the front end, and it'll deal with the rest.

 

[Robert]

I'm interested in why you'd want to use the two tweeter design of the BC1? What advantage do you think it brings given that finding a tweeter that will run from 2-20khz should not be an issue these days. I'd always prefer one good tweeter than two cheap ones, and I'd have loved to hear the SHL5s with something like a SEAS Excel soft dome in place of the H398 and Vifa metal domes.

Tony.

It can work very well.
Certainly the Rogers I have here using the Celestion HF1300 and HF2000 combo sounds much more integrated and natural than I've heard from the HL5. Very close to the sound of the ESL57 in the mid.
The larger domes, necessary to go reasonably low with decent power handing and have a dispersion closer to that of the woofer to which they cross, narrow very noticeably at the top end. A mall upper tweeter therefore helps, more for in toom response than strictly on axis.

 

[Robert]

Mr. Shaw might not want it, nor Mr.Swift for that matter

Not heard Mr Swift's version.
Mr Shaw's version of the 3/6 doesn't sound much like the real thing I have here from Rogers. Thats's not to denigrate the Harbeth, it just sounds quite different IMO. A number of things stand out, including mdf construction and only one screwed panel.

The one issue i think we could address, while maintaining what makes the BBC designs special in the mids and on vocals, is bass performance and sensitivity.
I think we could nudge 90dBw and keep a benign 8 ohm loading.

I just think that a new bookshelf speaker has to be different in some way because there are so many 'me too' designs out there.

Joe, are you thinking of the 3/5a?
Need a bloody big bookshelf for a 3/6

I seem to remember from my old marketing course, that if you already have something in the marketplace and wish to compete with it, that you need to be either:
- cheaper
- better
Relating to that, by cheaper, you also need to take into account the fact that Harbeth/Spender have a very solid reputation, and thus associated resale values. So as a fairly new company, you'd need to be substantially cheaper.

Strikes me that you need to think a bit more out of the box and less of the "clone". Some thoughts being:
- A BBC style monitor using the snazzy looking tweeter in the kensai
- Consider the use of real wood, as against "veneer". that's pretty rear nowadays and might give the product a USP that is pretty rare. Sure, it would add to the price, but personally I like real wood and hate veneer kicking around the house. For ref, the front baffle of my Ta'us uses a big slab of real maple, looks lovely.
- Clearly you have a lot of experience with room acoustics. What about a product that is less susceptible to typical room influences?
- Relating to the above, what about one that is sold with a unit like the DEQ2496, so that you can plug a digital source in the front end, and it'll deal with the rest.

Thanks Mike, interesting comments.

If we are going to stick with thin wall birch ply cabinets and quality drivers it cannot really be cheap product. Certainly not if made in very small volumes, and unfortunately Audiosmile isn't the size of Kef.
Lots of detail goes into a thin wall cabinet for it to work.
Real woods aren't suitable either - the BBC did tons of research on this and we'd like to use it.
Quite simply, in answer to your first point, we need to be better.

As I said earlier, isoplanar drivers are an option, The cabinet construction, voicing and traditional look are what make it BBC derived.

 

[Tony L]

Mr Shaw's version of the 3/6 doesn't sound much like the real thing I have here from Rogers. Thats's not to denigrate the Harbeth, it just sounds quite different IMO. A number of things stand out, including mdf construction and only one screwed panel.

The Harbs all have screwed-on front and back panels. They have made a couple of speakers that had glued baffles, though all the current range are traditional BBC-style screw fit.

Tony.

 

[joel]

The one issue i think we could address, while maintaining what makes the BBC designs special in the mids and on vocals, is bass performance and sensitivity.
I think we could nudge 90dBw and keep a benign 8 ohm loading.

Well, you wouldn't have to stick rigidly with the original dimensions, which surely leaves room to improve in certain areas.
Here are some things that would interest me:
Larger LF driver, perhaps 10-inch (as done by Klein & Hummel, PSI audio and, rather strikingly, Genelec)
Modern wave guides, but on a trad wide baffle, care taken with the baffle-step...
Slim (ie not narrow) cabinet. Most people don't use CRTs these days...
L-pads or similar to adjust in-room tuning a little, especially LF.
Ultra-low distortion, and a smooth FR.
You don't need to make them go really LOUD. The idea of a speaker that is optimised to perform at moderate to low SPLs is as valid today as it ever was.

I think the really big question you have to ask yourself if you do this is whether you want to make a cosy retro product (will sell well in China/Japan) or go for a modern and more radical approach - similar to that taken by the BBC in the 1960s and 70s.

 

[Robert]

Thanks Joel.

Most on that list can be combined with a thin-wall cabinet, so a bit of the old and the new.
One idea we looked at a while ago was a 10" bass driver centrally mounted on the (wide) baffle, with an isoplanar strip array running the length of the cabinet, ie the bass driver sits behind the mid/treble panel.. You can do that with a low crossover point.
That's do-able just about in a classic 12x12x24" cabinet or something a little larger such as NS1000 cab.