Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
It's their amplifiers I really don't like, especially the traditional Vereker ones.
Classic kit, what is the attraction?
- Thread starter MichaelC
- Start date
It's their amplifiers I really don't like, especially the traditional Vereker ones.
Martyn Miles
pfm Member
So you won't be getting a Naim Nait for Christmas then ?
I have to say the price of them is ridiculous.
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
The price is indeed ridiculous and all the more so for it not reflecting anything about the content! It's certainly not spent on R&D as the circuitry was bog standard for 1972 or so, which is when the designs were copied from elsewhere with just the odd tweak here and there. They are completely obsolete and a lesson in bad practice in audio design in general (apart from that they do put some effort into good grounding, which is very important). A car analogy would be to take a '72' car with push rod operated overhead valves, cross-ply tyres, carburettor and distributor and dress it up to look modern before offering it as a rival to a Lamborghini or similar... and at Lambo prices!
Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
I quite like the cd players and the Aro and the latest amps are much better. Earlier stuff? Nah. Id take a cheap passive pre with a Quad 306 over a NAC32 and NAP250 all day long!
MichaelC
pfm Member
Interesting to hear the thoughts and views of all who have responded. There is a lot of kit out there still worthy. I am seriously impressed with the build quality of the Sony amp and cd player, and I am sure that is replicated by the other big Japanese brands of the time.
Still deciding on the speakers to match with the Sony kit. It will, ultimately be a leap of faith based on past, albeit, limited experiences. Watch this space...
If there is a really rainy day, I may just hook the Sony up to the Wilsons to see what happens!
Still deciding on the speakers to match with the Sony kit. It will, ultimately be a leap of faith based on past, albeit, limited experiences. Watch this space...
If there is a really rainy day, I may just hook the Sony up to the Wilsons to see what happens!
George J
Herefordshire member
For me the classic of classics is the original ESL. The attraction is that its strengths co-incide so well with my hopes for replay. The speaker also avoids the modern tendency to cook the treble and bring any percussion forward in the balance. They also avoid the sin of making the double basses so loud that the cello and the basson might as well not have bothered to play. That is a sin committed by a rather large proportion of the normal “hifi” speakers based on conventional cones.
So the real issue is then how to drive the ESL to its best.
The ESL may not be the best loudspeaker ever made by now, but without question it IS the best mono loudspeaker ever made, and we shall never see another speaker designed for mono of its quality ever again. As I really dislike the artificiality and effect based type of replay all too common in stereo recordings, it has been my policy of years now to use mono as a less problematic method.
For music that is based on the stereo effect, ... well that sort of music does not please me!
As for sources, the situation is different. When the ESL was a new design the best source after the studio master tape was VHF radio, and to be fair VHF cannot hold a candle to the better modern digital sources. And the ESL thrives on a good digital source ...
ATB from George
So the real issue is then how to drive the ESL to its best.
The ESL may not be the best loudspeaker ever made by now, but without question it IS the best mono loudspeaker ever made, and we shall never see another speaker designed for mono of its quality ever again. As I really dislike the artificiality and effect based type of replay all too common in stereo recordings, it has been my policy of years now to use mono as a less problematic method.
For music that is based on the stereo effect, ... well that sort of music does not please me!
As for sources, the situation is different. When the ESL was a new design the best source after the studio master tape was VHF radio, and to be fair VHF cannot hold a candle to the better modern digital sources. And the ESL thrives on a good digital source ...
ATB from George
Tony L
Administrator
The other issue is how to maintain them at their best and most authentic. I know OTA are the obvious contenders, but I get the impression they alter the sound somewhat and their treble panels are quite a bit different. This is something that makes me nervous about taking the plunge. I really would like a pair, but I know how obsessive I am and I’d need to know I could get them exactly back to factory spec, which I guess is impossible given the panel coating is no longer made.
I love stereo so much I struggle to see the attraction of mono I have to admit, and one of the ESL’s real strengths is just how believable a soundstage they can create. I have a fair few mono albums as I’m a jazz fan and whatever the system I’ve always preferred them via both speakers than just one. By saying that I’d love to hear one of the huge brick mono-era Gilbert Brigs corner speakers, though I’d still prefer two of them!
PS I actually turned down buying what looked like a very nice condition Wharfdale SFB/3 a few weeks ago as I felt it would be too big a task to find it an identical friend. Would love to try a pair of those!
I love stereo so much I struggle to see the attraction of mono I have to admit, and one of the ESL’s real strengths is just how believable a soundstage they can create. I have a fair few mono albums as I’m a jazz fan and whatever the system I’ve always preferred them via both speakers than just one. By saying that I’d love to hear one of the huge brick mono-era Gilbert Brigs corner speakers, though I’d still prefer two of them!
PS I actually turned down buying what looked like a very nice condition Wharfdale SFB/3 a few weeks ago as I felt it would be too big a task to find it an identical friend. Would love to try a pair of those!
Rug Doc
pfm Member
It’s a nostalgia thing for me... When I was a young boy walking down th high street in the 70’s these amazing pieces of hifi just looked fabulous and totally unobtainable in their shiny shop windows.
I deal in antiques for a living, I’m lucky enough to run a 1970’s car, Live in a 1960’s house and have acquired over a few years a full 1970’s Yamaha system. All these things make me smile and warm inside.
I deal in antiques for a living, I’m lucky enough to run a 1970’s car, Live in a 1960’s house and have acquired over a few years a full 1970’s Yamaha system. All these things make me smile and warm inside.
George J
Herefordshire member
Dear Tony,
While Quad went through a funny period, it is fair to say that their servicing of ESLs is exemplary. My single speaker made in 1957, is mint cosmetically and functionally after a service in 2016 at Huntingdon. My previous pair were restored at OTA, and I very much prefer the original Huntingdon presentation, and you are right - the OTA ESL presentation is different. Horses for courses, and some may prefer the OTA changes, and some may prefer [as I do] the more slender and less demonstrative Huntingdon presentation.
Rob Flain is your contact if you want to get some un-alterred ESLs brought back to top-line performance.
How many sixty year old speakers can be brought back to original quality by the original makers? Not many and none better than the ESL.
ATB from George
While Quad went through a funny period, it is fair to say that their servicing of ESLs is exemplary. My single speaker made in 1957, is mint cosmetically and functionally after a service in 2016 at Huntingdon. My previous pair were restored at OTA, and I very much prefer the original Huntingdon presentation, and you are right - the OTA ESL presentation is different. Horses for courses, and some may prefer the OTA changes, and some may prefer [as I do] the more slender and less demonstrative Huntingdon presentation.
Rob Flain is your contact if you want to get some un-alterred ESLs brought back to top-line performance.
How many sixty year old speakers can be brought back to original quality by the original makers? Not many and none better than the ESL.
ATB from George
George J
Herefordshire member
Dear Tony,
I bought my single Huntingdon serviced ESL from James Brydie. I have had a few dealings with Rob Flain, and he is the real gentlemen as head of IAG UK. I would suggest that your first point of contact would ideally be with Rob, and go from there, but there is no doubting how splendid my sixrty year old ESL actually is.
Having been in my new flat for only a short while, not many have visited me yet, but one who is a real Naim enthusiast said that he would swap his kit in a trice, if he could get it past his wife! His comment was that the replay was not just pleasant, but rather wonderful in a non-demonstrative way.
I suppose I would say it was hopeless for the pulsing wonderment of Frankie Goes To Hollywood, but peerless on anything [including the organ music] of Bach ... or indeed even the largest choirs in Mahler ...
Elgar’s Gerontius, and if you close your eyes you could well be in the hall!
ATB from George
I bought my single Huntingdon serviced ESL from James Brydie. I have had a few dealings with Rob Flain, and he is the real gentlemen as head of IAG UK. I would suggest that your first point of contact would ideally be with Rob, and go from there, but there is no doubting how splendid my sixrty year old ESL actually is.
Having been in my new flat for only a short while, not many have visited me yet, but one who is a real Naim enthusiast said that he would swap his kit in a trice, if he could get it past his wife! His comment was that the replay was not just pleasant, but rather wonderful in a non-demonstrative way.
I suppose I would say it was hopeless for the pulsing wonderment of Frankie Goes To Hollywood, but peerless on anything [including the organ music] of Bach ... or indeed even the largest choirs in Mahler ...
Elgar’s Gerontius, and if you close your eyes you could well be in the hall!
ATB from George
It is fun to get old gear sounding great again.
My passion centres around gear i loved to use since abt 8 yrs old thru my teens that ive now inherited.
2 lovely td124 s, 2 very interesting Ortofon MCs, and JBL L200 spkrs.
The L200 is the worst spkr JBL ever made (crappy woofer) but i ve made it a 3 way adding 2045 tweeters and following JBL circuitry in a new box and it sounds acceptable in a second system tho bass still wooly!
Its taken a while to get the 124s working quietly but i am happy with what ive achieved.
A 3012 mk ii has been rewired and refurbed and works great
I got into the vintage valve amp silliness and have spent far too much money acquiring and then restoring 2 old sansui integrated amps
I think it would be better to stay with simpler circuits of minimalist valve amps like Quad or Leak instead of the complex circuitry and parts of the sansuis, but i am not going there !
The Sansuis do sound good but I ve now settled on transistors and am vry happy with not really vintage Jap pre and power (Sanyo C55 Plus + NakPA7) from the 80s powering the astounding NS1000M
I ve achieved a sound that i think is very good especially considering the front end is from the 60s.
Am currently using the ortofon SL15Q that we ve had from the early 70s .
It did not get much play cause i think dad had all of 3 quadrophonic LPs!
ive learnt that it is quite a special cartridge so its come out of display and into regular use.
Dad also had the S15T and ive learnt that the heart of it is the SL15 that is now undergoing a full rebuild with Ag wires in Cala/AnaMighty in France.
I will break with tradition and put it in a new Thomas Schick arm onto one of the 124s. Oh dear going to be expensive !
My passion centres around gear i loved to use since abt 8 yrs old thru my teens that ive now inherited.
2 lovely td124 s, 2 very interesting Ortofon MCs, and JBL L200 spkrs.
The L200 is the worst spkr JBL ever made (crappy woofer) but i ve made it a 3 way adding 2045 tweeters and following JBL circuitry in a new box and it sounds acceptable in a second system tho bass still wooly!
Its taken a while to get the 124s working quietly but i am happy with what ive achieved.
A 3012 mk ii has been rewired and refurbed and works great
I got into the vintage valve amp silliness and have spent far too much money acquiring and then restoring 2 old sansui integrated amps
I think it would be better to stay with simpler circuits of minimalist valve amps like Quad or Leak instead of the complex circuitry and parts of the sansuis, but i am not going there !
The Sansuis do sound good but I ve now settled on transistors and am vry happy with not really vintage Jap pre and power (Sanyo C55 Plus + NakPA7) from the 80s powering the astounding NS1000M
I ve achieved a sound that i think is very good especially considering the front end is from the 60s.
Am currently using the ortofon SL15Q that we ve had from the early 70s .
It did not get much play cause i think dad had all of 3 quadrophonic LPs!
ive learnt that it is quite a special cartridge so its come out of display and into regular use.
Dad also had the S15T and ive learnt that the heart of it is the SL15 that is now undergoing a full rebuild with Ag wires in Cala/AnaMighty in France.
I will break with tradition and put it in a new Thomas Schick arm onto one of the 124s. Oh dear going to be expensive !
Martyn Miles
pfm Member
As we have Quad ‘in mind’ on this thread, their tuners ought to be mentioned.
I owned an original FM1 many years ago, for which I had a power supply and a stereo decoder built.
It was sold on eventually and I bought a modern Denon FM/DAB tuner.
Always missed that Quad though.
About 6 months ago I had the opportunity to buy an FM3 from a friend who had too many (!)
Quad tuners.
So good to have ‘Quad sound’ back again.
A quiet afternoon, some Radio 3 and life is good again...
I owned an original FM1 many years ago, for which I had a power supply and a stereo decoder built.
It was sold on eventually and I bought a modern Denon FM/DAB tuner.
Always missed that Quad though.
About 6 months ago I had the opportunity to buy an FM3 from a friend who had too many (!)
Quad tuners.
So good to have ‘Quad sound’ back again.
A quiet afternoon, some Radio 3 and life is good again...
martin clark
pinko bodger
Martyn
I'm pretty sure I bought that FM1 off you, c.12yrs ago, and it still works a treat. Still on the same set of valves! (the bag of spares you supplied remains in hand)
Sorry to report that PSU however died very quickly in a cloud of smoke - secondary cooked-out fortunately while I was around to hit the mains switch. With that I also shed the decoder board, but wasn't using it anyway - preferring the S:N silence of unfettered mono.
Soon after I bought a mint AM2 just to keep it company, simply for the design.
Regards
Martin
I'm pretty sure I bought that FM1 off you, c.12yrs ago, and it still works a treat. Still on the same set of valves! (the bag of spares you supplied remains in hand)
Sorry to report that PSU however died very quickly in a cloud of smoke - secondary cooked-out fortunately while I was around to hit the mains switch. With that I also shed the decoder board, but wasn't using it anyway - preferring the S:N silence of unfettered mono.
Soon after I bought a mint AM2 just to keep it company, simply for the design.
Regards
Martin
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Arkless Electronics
Trade: Amp design and repairs.
I found the Leak Troughline to be better than the Quad. I once sold something like 5 FM1'sand 2's to somebody years ago! Still have an original decoder board...
The FM3 and Leak Stereofetic are pretty evenly matched in every way but for what ever reason, Quads sell for loads more!
The FM3 and Leak Stereofetic are pretty evenly matched in every way but for what ever reason, Quads sell for loads more!
Martyn Miles
pfm Member
Martyn,
I'm pretty sure I bought that FM1 off you, c.12yrs ago, and it still works a treat. Still on the same set of valves! (The bag of spares you supplied remains in hand)
Sorry to report that PSU however died very quickly in a cloud of smoke - secondary cooked-out fortunately while I was around to hit the mains switch. With that I also shed the decoder board, but wasn't using it anyway - preferring the S:N silence of unfettered mono.
Soon after I bought a mint AM2 just to keep it company, simply for the design.
Regards
Martin
Yes, Martin, I recall selling the FM1 to you. Is it really that long ago ?
Sorry to hear about the power supply. I have forgotten who built it for me.
Martyn.
Del monaco
Del Monaco
I use a Rotel 965BX for cd and a Yamaha CT 1010 fm tuner. I love them. Listening to R3 on the tuner now. They are solidly built and they sound just right to me. Though I stream through Roon a lot of the time, I frequently return to these classics.its like coming home.
beammeup
pfm Member
I've yet to listen to ESL's in my room - but based on roughly the same methodology of avoiding cone based loudspeakers my vintage late 70's Magnepan MG-1's convey a rightness about the sound which is very addictive. My room isn't perfect for them but they still surprise me how well they convey the music (and you don't have to plug them in). I also think they look superb in their own imposing way standing there 5ft tall and 2ft wide - they are certainly an object of curiosity for visitors which always makes me smile.