Julf
Facts are our friends
So you did a test, and in the end rejected the results of the test and went with what you choose to believe instead?
Power Cables. Are they overhyped? Part III
- Thread starter Mike42
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So you did a test, and in the end rejected the results of the test and went with what you choose to believe instead?
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
Every cable is different from every other in that if we measured, say, their series resistance, capacitance, and a few other basic values *with enough precision* we could find the values differed. However:
A) That doesn't mean that an arbitrarily small such difference would *always* produce an audible difference. May sometimes simply be too small to be noticed by anyone.
B) As the amount of difference in the values reduces we end up in a situation where the values vary as much or more with time, etc. So any difference would vary unprdictably from one listening session to another.
Thus the idea that 'everyting is different' doesn't mean "these real physical differences will always be able to produce a reliable audible difference."
For me the threashold tends to be set by simple factors like moving my head a cm or so. If that alters the sound more than I think I heard from something else I tend to stop caring much about the something else in terms of feeling it matters to me when listening.
A) That doesn't mean that an arbitrarily small such difference would *always* produce an audible difference. May sometimes simply be too small to be noticed by anyone.
B) As the amount of difference in the values reduces we end up in a situation where the values vary as much or more with time, etc. So any difference would vary unprdictably from one listening session to another.
Thus the idea that 'everyting is different' doesn't mean "these real physical differences will always be able to produce a reliable audible difference."
For me the threashold tends to be set by simple factors like moving my head a cm or so. If that alters the sound more than I think I heard from something else I tend to stop caring much about the something else in terms of feeling it matters to me when listening.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
Yes, exactly.
If, as a serious birdwatcher, you walk onto your lawn this morning and see a robin, but three of your friends say, no, it's a flycatcher, you'll believe it's a flycatcher?
Editted to add, Oh, and it's 'what I heared'...nothing to do with a belief system...that's for religion and stuff.
Julf
Facts are our friends
If you see this picture:
http://www.eyetricks.com/6701.jpg
and your eyes tell you that the distance between "A" and "B" is longer than the distance between "C" and "D", but you and three of your friends measure it and conclude that they are the same length, would you still say that "A" to "B" is longer?
No, belief is the right word. You believe that what your brain and ears tell you is the absolute truth.
Joe P
Memory Alpha incarnate | mod; Shatner number = 2
Julf,
The interesting thing is that even if I've confirmed to myself that A to B is the same distance as C to D, it doesn't alter my perception one iota. A to B still looks longer to me and that's all I have to go on when looking at the picture. I've been fooled, but so what?
Extrapolate that to hi-fi.
Joe
That's a good analogy for what I think is at the heart of all of these mains cable and similar threads — when some say they hear a difference they might be talking about their subjective perception, while others are talking about objective measurement.
The interesting thing is that even if I've confirmed to myself that A to B is the same distance as C to D, it doesn't alter my perception one iota. A to B still looks longer to me and that's all I have to go on when looking at the picture. I've been fooled, but so what?
Extrapolate that to hi-fi.
Joe
Julf
Facts are our friends
If you are admiring a piece of art, it is OK (and even desirable) to be fooled, but if you are about to cut roof beams for your new garage, I think objective measurements would be called for.
Joe P
Memory Alpha incarnate | mod; Shatner number = 2
Julf,
Of course, but similarly if I think a valve amp sounds more real and natural than a solid state amp, that's my perception and it's as real an experience to me as any.
My 'silly scope might have a different take on matters, but I can't hear what the 'silly scope hears.
Joe
P.S. I'm actually cool with both valve and SS amps. But with my current speakers, which date to a time before the audio world went solid state, work best with an amp wth a looser grip.
Of course, but similarly if I think a valve amp sounds more real and natural than a solid state amp, that's my perception and it's as real an experience to me as any.
My 'silly scope might have a different take on matters, but I can't hear what the 'silly scope hears.
Joe
P.S. I'm actually cool with both valve and SS amps. But with my current speakers, which date to a time before the audio world went solid state, work best with an amp wth a looser grip.
Julf
Facts are our friends
That is why I wrote the part about admiring a piece of art. Objective reality and perception/enjoyment are not very strongly correlated (as those of my friends who regularly frequent coffee shops keep telling me).
Rockmeister
pfm Member
If you see this picture:
http://www.eyetricks.com/6701.jpg
and your eyes tell you that the distance between "A" and "B" is longer than the distance between "C" and "D", but you and three of your friends measure it and conclude that they are the same length, would you still say that "A" to "B" is longer?
No, belief is the right word. You believe that what your brain and ears tell you is the absolute truth.
Are you then suggesting that perceived differences are the result of some audible effect fooling the brain? I'm unclear otherwise why you use that analogy??
As toi your second sentence, again it seems ironic that, as an apparent man of science, you take ONE small instance of my thinking and brand my entire life with your chosen terminolgy and idealology. What happened was (oh just go read my post again). See? It was one careful considered experience, repeated for verification, and based on a lifetime in HiFi and as a musician. THAT's what I believe, but not absolute no...certain enough to write about it here, but still open minded. You should try that.
Lee T
pfm Member
I have just installed a Cyrus interconnect I picked up cheap, basically a solid single wire with high quality plugs (dnm reson with a fancy outer cloth I believe) my subjective view (as blind tests are no longer a passion), the sound has changed for the better from my Chord cable.
Julf
Facts are our friends
No, I am suggesting the effects might be your brain fooling itself. Just like in the visual illusion.
I have no idea (and nor do I care) about your entire life. I commented on your choice in that particular situation.
Lee T
pfm Member
It really is as simple as this^^, I used to do this all the time many years ago when I considered purchasing new over my current equipment.
This is precisely how my friends & I determined the mains cable test I carried out a few years ago.
Rockmeister
pfm Member
You believe that what your brain and ears tell you is the absolute truth.
I think then that you should try:
'You believed then in that example, that you brain....'
Oh and I wasn't fooled by the pictorial example. So the answer was no, I worked out why the test was set, looked for the flaws, found them and knew why it wasn't real. Comes of being an Art teacher I suppose.
ps. That flycatcher's still on your lawn.
I think then that you should try:
'You believed then in that example, that you brain....'
Oh and I wasn't fooled by the pictorial example. So the answer was no, I worked out why the test was set, looked for the flaws, found them and knew why it wasn't real. Comes of being an Art teacher I suppose.
ps. That flycatcher's still on your lawn.
venton
pfm Member
When I go to the opticians they put in two lenses. Which is clearer, 1 or 2?
By a sequence of these tests, I get to clearest vision.
I do the same with my hifi, listen to a and b and select the best.
Not everything is an improvement, or no change.
What is the difference between visual choice and aural choice?
I don't get this not believeing people about cables. If they hear a difference, they hear a difference, end of.
Clear sight is clear sight, clear audio is clear audio.
By a sequence of these tests, I get to clearest vision.
I do the same with my hifi, listen to a and b and select the best.
Not everything is an improvement, or no change.
What is the difference between visual choice and aural choice?
I don't get this not believeing people about cables. If they hear a difference, they hear a difference, end of.
Clear sight is clear sight, clear audio is clear audio.
Lee T
pfm Member
Inescapable logical conclusions have been proven wrong on so many occasions in the world of science, you push, it moves forward is no longer an inescapable logical conclusion.
A bad scientist makes such a claim without testing being carried out, it's your personal view, as it is with a couple of others here, no one has tested out this theory.
Until they do, it's a cop out & a convenient get out clause, that's my personal opinion until proven wrong.
Julf
Facts are our friends
suzywong
Wot, no electrons?
Good link, gets through to the full book. Thanks.
Lee T
pfm Member
How does this disprove the need for tested theories.
A claim is nothing more than a personal view until proven by scientific testing.
To claim any piece of hifi equipment has to be faulty because an improved mains lead improves the sound needs to be proven to be so, it has zero to do with Carl Sagan's Baloney detection checklist, it's simply standard scientific practice.
Maybe you & a few others could prove this view, until then.....
Julf
Facts are our friends
misterdog
Not the canine kind
NO
To claim any piece of hifi equipment has been improved because an improved mains lead improves the sound needs to be proven to be so.
Ball - Court - Yours.
Good luck, you will need it, faries and electrons are not a good engineering mix.