New budget Naim.

[MVV]

QUOTE "I have read that the more power, the less music, in effect, and the price does seem to suggest that you're paying for the design compromises inherent in more powerful amplifiers, but how many speakers, or rooms even, need that amount of headroom? Naim amplification has never been about power output (amperage, yes, but not watts)."

This is interesting and mirrors my experience. I wonder if any of the techies who actually know stuff (assuming we still have any) might elaborate?

 

[maxflinn]

Max,


If you haven't tried any Naim PSUs, how would you know?

Joe

Joe, I know for the same reasons that I know MANA Racks, Rega's expensive mains cables, Cat pee deflectors and expensive HDMI cables all do nothing too - because there's absolutely zero scienfific evidence.

Anyway it's Friday night and I don't want to be arguing, especially with nice people like you, so I'm out

 

[rn82497]

I wish people that had zero understanding of Science or the Scientific process would stop taking its name in vain!

As an aside - Rega mains cables DO sound different to stock kettle leads. Whether they are an improvement or not is another matter. Suggest you try out the experiment in a sufficient resolving system.

 

[Joe P]

Max,

Joe, I know for the same reasons that I know MANA Racks, Rega's expensive mains cables, Cat pee deflectors and expensive HDMI cables all do nothing too - because there's absolutely zero scienfific evidence.

I feel like we're stuck in a loop here.

10: You claim something without any evidence to back it up

20: This is pointed out

30: You say that evidence is not required without explaining why this is so

40: A technically minded person shows why, for example, a power supply can and does make a difference in some cases, and a scientifically minded person explains that science requires empirical evidence

50: You reluctantly conceded the points

60: You forget that you conceded the points

70: Go to 10

Not that it really matters, but why bother doing this repeatedly?

Joe

P.S. Fishies like Rob and Paul R at least take that added crucial step of providing evidence or sound technical reasons why some things makes a difference and some things don't. That's how it's done, man.

 

[Singslinger]

In my experience, Naim PSUs do change the sound but it's up to the listener to decide a) if the change is for the better and b) whether the perceived improvement is worth the money.


I also think the fact that most Naim gear can be tweaked (not necessarily improved, mind) by the addition of PSUs is a clever feature that actually appeals to many buyers, especially those who know that after living with a particular sound or musical delivery for say a year or two, would find themselves itching to improve that sound.

As for the huge power on tap by the new amp, all I can say is that manufacturers like Krell, MBL, Soulutions and Musical Fidelity have been making massive power amps for years so there must be a market for such designs. Good luck to Naim - I really hope the new products sell well and the company does well.

 

[htm_1968]

Wikipedia confirms I'm correct:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns

You are not correct, and it is a poor idea to trust Wikipedia. But if you Had read more than the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article you would Know that thisrefers to a situation where total returns increase with an input (e.g. £££ invested) but the rate of increase in total return (or benefit) is decreasing as input (eg ££ investment) rises.

 

[James]

QUOTE "I have read that the more power, the less music, in effect, and the price does seem to suggest that you're paying for the design compromises inherent in more powerful amplifiers, but how many speakers, or rooms even, need that amount of headroom? Naim amplification has never been about power output (amperage, yes, but not watts)."

This is interesting and mirrors my experience. I wonder if any of the techies who actually know stuff (assuming we still have any) might elaborate?

More is less, or something like that?

Loudspeakers are governed more or less by Hoffman's Iron Law, which states that they are constrained by efficiency, size and bass extension that are related. If you want more bass extension, you have to put up with a bigger box or reduced efficiency etc.

Reducing efficiency is the easiest thing to do, and everyone would prefer compact loudspeakers over wardrobe sized monstrosities. Inefficient loudspeakers demand more power, but inefficient loudspeakers also tend to sound somewhat sluggish. There is a good reason why many people think that large horns and big Tannoys sound more vital than tiny speakerettes driving by massive amps.

BTW, Naim amps don't deliver much current compared to the arc-welding offerings from Krell or Levinson.

 

[maxflinn]

Max,


I feel like we're stuck in a loop here.

10: You claim something without any evidence to back it up

20: This is pointed out

30: You say that evidence is not required without explaining why this is so

40: A technically minded person shows why, for example, a power supply can and does make a difference in some cases, and a scientifically minded person explains that science requires empirical evidence

50: You reluctantly conceded the points

60: You forget that you conceded the points

70: Go to 10

Not that it really matters, but why bother doing this repeatedly?

Joe

P.S. Fishies like Rob and Paul R at least take that added crucial step of providing evidence or sound technical reasons why some things makes a difference and some things don't. That's how it's done, man.

Joe, companies like Naim make expensive external PSU's and then...

1 - They claim that they improve performance.

2 - Reviewers try them out and agree with Naim.

3 - Punters buy them and they also agree that they work.

4 - People on fora ask how they work.

5 - Nobody on fora can answer.

6 - People get suspicious.

7 - People question whether they do anything at all.

8 - Owners defend their products - Saying that they do work.

10 - People ask them to explain how.

11 - They can't - They just say they do work.

12 - Fishies like Rob and Paul R explain why they don't work.

13 - Other fishies disagree - And call their fishie bretheren trolls.

14 - Sensible people investigate and find that the products are Foo.

15 - Owners get very defensive and factions are formed.

16 - Mods have to try to deal with the arguments.

17 - Owners start asking non-believers to prove that they don't work.

18 - Sensible people that have investigated explain that there is zero proof that they do work.

19 - Owners ask them how they can know that if they haven't heard them.

20 - Sensible people explain the power of suggestion.

21 - Owners call them trolls and explain that they trust their ears.

22 - Sensible people ask them to blind test.

23 - Owners don't ever do that.

24 - Sensible people ask - Why not?

25 - Owners don't need to, they say.

26 - Science is ignored.

27 - Myths are born.

28 - Bad advice is passed on by owners who are now heavily emotionally invested in their products.

29 - The truth is buried.

30 - Naim win.

31 - Punters lose.

31 - Sensible people give up.

32 - Or do they

 

[Markus S]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[Joe P]

Markus,

Well, that settles it. Should we let Tony know he can now safely close the forum?

Joe

 

[Joe P]

Max,

5 - Nobody on fora can answer.

You think no one here can explain and show why, say, a SuperCap is better than a FlatCap?

Joe

 

[Markus S]

I think Max should start his own forum, Sensible Audio or something like that. There, sensible people can agree with each other over what sounds how, what makes a difference or not etc. Whenever someone says he has done a listening comparison this will result in an automatic ban since he has turned out not to be sensible after all.

 

[Singslinger]

I think Max should start his own forum, Sensible Audio or something like that. There, sensible people can agree with each other over what sounds how, what makes a difference or not etc. Whenever someone says he has done a listening comparison this will result in an automatic ban since he has turned out not to be sensible after all.

Sounds sensible to me.

 

[redeye]

1. Stick CDX2 on shelf, power up

2. Insert CD, play fave song

3. Attach XPS2, play same song

4. Remove XPS2, attach 555PS in its place and repeat process

5. Now.. Remove head from own arse and fess up that you've actually been full of it recently.

Job done.

 

[Suffolk Tony]

Don't feed the troll guys...

 

[boegelund]

Please wait closing this forum

At least until monday

 

[mudlark]

Thread, the forum is safe from closure.....

(PS If you have a big room you need more power and better speakers for the same volume)

These Naim monsters are not for typical listeners, but for those with barns, large american homes and footballers with more money than sense.)

(PS 2 - The pre amp is daft and daylight robbery)

 

[Mike Reed]

Joe,................

5 - Nobody on fora can answer.

/QUOTE]

W.t.f. is or are FORA?

Is it a drug from Roman times, or a margarine with a missing ingredient, or Roman market places, where I'm sure they didn't discuss hifi?

Plural of FORUM is Forums, and has been FOR A long time.

 

[Stuart Frazer]

You are not correct, and it is a poor idea to trust Wikipedia. But if you Had read more than the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article you would Know that thisrefers to a situation where total returns increase with an input (e.g. £££ invested) but the rate of increase in total return (or benefit) is decreasing as input (eg ££ investment) rises.

Most 'normal' people got the gist of my point. You are obviously looking at things the wrong way round.

 

[Julf]

Boy have we stooped low when we start to argue about language and grammar...

W.t.f. is or are FORA?

Multiple forums. Both "fora" and "forum" are acceptable forms, but "forums" is recommended for normal language use these days. That doesn't make "fora" wrong.