Challenge From Harbeth - Free M40.1 For Those Who Can Identify Amplifier Differences

[spxy]

why don't you watch the videos i posted up for a start....i thought you knew all these very basic theories.....

video is an hour, any basic answers around...

 

[Elephantears]

What darrylfunk has said is very interesting, and the thread by Puresound that I think started off this sub-thread was a great riposte to the so called objectivists. I do think this would be better as an independent thread though. From the archiving and searching point of view its good to keep coherent topics in one place. And from a single thread point of view, it starts to become cacophony rather than creative dialogue when there are 3 or 4 subjects being discussed simultaneously.

I hope someone does start a really good informative thread about loudness without too much knee jerk squabbling because there are so many knowledgeable people here it will be an excellent education.

 

[darrylfunk]

video is an hour, any basic answers around...

and that is a quick explanation....to be honest if you want to learn about it, me and bottleneck have given you the links....

http://www.dynamicrange.de/

and the ebu videos actually last about 20 hours if you watch the whole series.

hopefully you will find it interesting enough to learn about, we need more people to know about it in the hi fi world.


previous woeful attempt at discussing dynamics here....

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=110977

 

[Tony L]

Indeed, as am I (see signature).

Frankly, the dynamic range of recorded music is the mountain, and the discussion of this particular thread is the molehill. I am glad the thread has ''de-railled'' because it's now talking about something of actual merit.

If Tony wanted to make a ''sticky'' in which we discussed the various releases of the same album, and which version had the greatest dynamic range - this would be a useful pot into which people could dip. .

For example, if you wanted to buy a copy of Curtis Mayfield's 'Superfly' on CD - wouldn't you like to know whether the 1983 mastering was significantly better than the 1991 mastered copy?

I damn would.

That's the kind of information you used to get in the Penguin Jazz guides about Vinyl, but we need a resource for it for CD. Someone please take my idea and run with it. I am not copyrighting it!

This type of content is always most welcome in the music room. I'd like to see far more discussion of vinyl pressings, CD masterings etc here on pfm as to my ears selecting the best is far more important than the replay kit downstream. I'm not sure if it would work as a single thread though, probably better discussed on a title by title basis, but get discussing it!

 

[pure sound]

Teddy Ray. Here's a screen grab of one of a series of tracks that you uploaded links to on Wigwam a week or so back. These were recordings you had made of Magnolia Electric Company (in Germany?)

I do like this music but it was a shame you let the levels run so high. Odd as well since presumably you weren't trying to 'pitch' these at anyone. Doesn't your equipment have meters to prevent this?

Still, who really cares eh? Just a few silly "gear infatuated" audiophiles indulging in "a giant orgy of wang measuring , sheldrake mysticism, voodoo, and distance reiki coupled with new age philosophical rambling" maybe.

But what do they matter?

 

[onlyconnect]

That's the kind of information you used to get in the Penguin Jazz guides about Vinyl, but we need a resource for it for CD. Someone please take my idea and run with it. I am not copyrighting it!

Search the Steve Hoffman forums - many remasters are discussed there.

Tim

 

[darrylfunk]

Teddy Ray. Here's a screen grab of one of a series of tracks that you uploaded links to on Wigwam a week or so back. These were recordings you had made of Magnolia Electric Company (in Germany?)

I do like this music but it was a shame you let the levels run so high. Odd as well since presumably you weren't trying to 'pitch' these at anyone. Doesn't your equipment have meters to prevent this?

Still, who really cares eh? Just a few silly "gear infatuated" audiophiles indulging in "a giant orgy of wang measuring , sheldrake mysticism, voodoo, and distance reiki coupled with new age philosophical rambling" maybe.

But what do they matter?

unfortunately your pretty picture does not show the scaling you have just zoomed in on the full songs waveform....you are forgetting the density of the spectrum and the peak levels....try zooming out and looking at the peaks and transients....it doesn't show the 32 bit or 64 bit headroom either.

this is what i mean many people do not understand the levels in a digital buss.

 

[pure sound]

Darryl, here's the track opened in Audacity.

and here's a link to the .wav file.

Please put it up showing the correct scaling and show how the last couple of minutes aren't running into the buffers. It's obviously something I don't understand.





Edit: Link to mediafire removed. You can still access the track by copying the link info above into your browser and adding the www. bit.

Markus - moderating

Edit TL: link actually removed, I can't be too careful at the moment.

 

[darrylfunk]

the file looks (and sounds) like it has been clipped in a few places....sounds like it's been run through some codecs too.

 

[pure sound]

Oh, now you agree?

 

[BlueEyes]

Alan Shaw once told me his company makes 8 Harbeth 40.1 loudspeakers, a week, I wonder how many he will have made before a decision is made to get round to challenging for the one in question.

 

[Tony L]

Alan Shaw once told me his company makes 8 Harbeth 40.1 loudspeakers, a week....

Are you sure? That's a hell of a lot of large and very specialist high-end loudspeakers by anyone's standards. If that's correct I wonder how many P3ESRs they make? My money would be on that being their biggest seller by a mile.

 

[Paul R]

Darryl, here's the track opened in Audacity.

Try setting 'View/Show Clipping' for some added drama.

Although I'm not sure that a sound board recording is a good tool to beat Teddy with.

Paul

 

[BlueEyes]

Are you sure? That's a hell of a lot of large and very specialist high-end loudspeakers by anyone's standards. If that's correct I wonder how many P3ESRs they make? My money would be on that being their biggest seller by a mile.

Tony, I spoke to him on the phone once as I wanted to go down to the factory.

He came over as a really sound bloke and we left it that he had little room for demos at the factory and to touch base laterbut I could hear them at Radlett Audio.

What impressed me about him was the abscence of any bullshit, whatosever, in what he had to say and I hope I get the chance to meet him in the future.

That number, 8, is what I remember him saying as it was the 40.1 recommended by Pluto who has a pair, and who I chatted to again at Scalford this year, that I wanted to listen to.

If I have misheard him, I apologise to both him and the thread for any duff information.

 

[Tony L]

Thanks Greg, and good on him, it's very refreshing to hear Harbeth are doing so well.

 

[audioman]

Are you sure? That's a hell of a lot of large and very specialist high-end loudspeakers by anyone's standards. If that's correct I wonder how many P3ESRs they make? My money would be on that being their biggest seller by a mile.

Harbeth is mainly an export business. I have heard they regularly send out crateloads all over the world. They appear to be popular in the States as well as far east where there are plenty customers who can afford expensive 'monitor' speakers. The Uk market prefers small skinny speakers in general.

Frankly a lot of UK's most successfull hi-fi manufacturers produce mainly for export and therefore maintain high prices in the UK. I would expect to see the likes of Linn and Naim to disappear before some of these lesser known 'no bullshit' brands. Pehaps this is what AS is hinting at when he talks about sustainability.

 

[darrylfunk]

ok this maybe regarded off topic but let me put this article forward as to where 'all of us' in someways maybe going wrong.

by obsessing over ease of use.
by obsessing with what we are listening on.
by obsessing with getting a slightly better sound.
by obsessing with getting a louder sound.
by obsessing over detail.
by obsessing with the new.
by obsessing over the authentic.
by obsessing with nuances unrelated to the music.

are we missing the point?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/lucyjones/100062337/are-we-losing-our-respect-for-music/

sometimes i feel bemused by bad audio engineering, by foo selling dealers, by magazine reviews on the endless treadmill of the next reference, by people who believe in only 'one true path' of single audio manufacturers.....and listeners who think they actually 'know' what the music actually means and sounds like.

it all distracts from the fun of listening.

 

[Brian]

Just catching up as I've been busy.

It depends what we are trying to establish. But I think it needs much thought to be of any real value.

If we are trying to establish that 'all amps sound the same' we never will because they simply don't. The most vocal on all sides will I think agree on that.

Rob,

Previous posts of yours (or was it Serge?) indicate you think all competently designed amplifiers made in the last 'x' years sound the same. I don't think I'm the only who believes that's your position so maybe clarification from you would be useful.

So we can look at this in a number of ways:

Do amplifiers which measure similarly (criteria to be set) sound different?
That's by far the area where the biggest disagreements are seen. I'd suggest it is also the one area where this test could be most useful. The vast majority of Harbeth owners will be using SS amps form Quad, Arcam, Cyrus, Cambridge, Naim etc. In other words, designs where you could specify a narrow measured variance, yet where large sonic differences are often claimed.

Alternatively, you could try to establish how different amplifiers need to be in certain key measured areas for the difference to be audible. That's also interesting but I'd suggest not really within the remit of this test. it would require considerable time and effort to produce anything worthwhile IMO.
This is to some degree what the old James Moir test sought to establish, with a valve amp at one end and a (then) modern SS at the other.

So I think some clarity is required over exactly what is being tested, because if its the idea that 'all amps sound the same' then its a complete waste of time, though it could be a very easy win for someone wanting a pair of Harbeths. Feck, I might even enter myself if that's the case!

Why not keep it simple and kill two birds with one stone here? What about using say a naim 72/140 versus a naim 62/140? Or 32.5/140 versus 42.5/140 would be even better, as I believe I can tell a 32.5 from a 42.5 quite easily.

@Brian no tough guy stuff, just saying what I think. Family trait to say things bluntly.

Fine. I'm perfectly at ease with that. I'd appreciate it though if you'd stop going on as though you think I'm a believer in daft stuff like tying a knot in an interconnect is a worthwhile improvement, which is how it seems from the "tone" of your posts to me a couple of days ago when I last checked the forum.

Thanks

 

[Yank]

I don't listen to mainstream music, everything I listen to is new, and I really fail to see just what the problem is. there is so much "underground" music out there that bitching and moaning about "the loudness war" is like standing outside of fort knox, with full access, and complaining about how small your gold chain is. so weird, man.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

This horror is being inflicted on all sorts of recordings, new and old remasters as well.

As for what sells, I can't help but notice that the record companies are in serious trouble and are in danger of becoming irrelevant and obsolete. Perhaps Loudness Wars is contributing to that?

 

[Yank]

for what it's worth i have heard some of your amps and thought they were expensive for the audio quality they put out....which i was disappointed by because i like your forum persona and the amps looked nice and well built....but the sound was meh!

I thought all amps sounded the same?