advertisement


Young ears

darrenyeats said:
Many audiophiles run their DACs at full output (no digital volume control) and this isn't the best thing to do with modern recordings. Some DACs perform a little better below full output (not necessarily just inter-sample overs I'm talking about) and modern music is sitting near 0db much of the time with all the loudness shenanigans (sometimes but not always with extra shenanigans on digital masters). Also audiophiles like high sample rates, and if the mastering has been pushed too hard, high sample rate just lets you hear more high frequency damage.

Then audiophiles complain modern music sounds crap.

Whereas youngins are using smart phones, tablets, sound bars, lifestyle, car systems with digital volume control therefore plenty of headroom (analogue and digital) in the DAC device, and at most 48kHz source. Not always optimal in a theoretical world, but at least it works with the recordings and not against them.

This would then impact a comparison of digital versus vinyl.

With well recorded music, well mastered on digital, the above is less of a factor and I'd expect digital to be clearly better in most systems (as reported by OP).
Click to expand...
I have a Benchmark DAC3 HGC, which has +3.5dB headroom, and a 32bit volume control, IIRC, enabling me to use that without losing quality on 16 bit recordings. And LPs on a turntable still have a magic that the digital doesn't. Even though my system has been built round the digital front end for several years.
 
All digital recordings I have looked at differ considerably from pre-digital vinyl recordings. The vinyl is hard to re-record well, because levels vary drastically [and I don't mean clicks and pops]. Engineers knew all the overload points when recording, how to keep headroom limits away, or where it didn't matter too much such as treble compression on tape due to wideband loudness. Digital non-classsical is almost universally normalised, or run against brick wall limiting even when the music is quite transient. Presumably the point of CD being about 2V analogue at max versus all other hifi kit being 200-500mV, was to give about 20dB of headroom for transients, which was ignored from day one by the industry. Apart from making music boring with this 'modern' constant loud treble and hard limited bass, rather than natural crescendo, another issue is that room problems become more obvious. Back in the day, no one whinged about rooms making music unlistenable.
 
Yomanze said:
It doesn’t surprise me at all. To get near good digital you need to go into high four or five figures, but some people do seem to like the distinct sonic flavour, ‘nice vinyl sound’ of records. I like playing old vinyl, indeed a lot of good masterings that are poor on CD, but even this has levelled off these days.
Click to expand...

Purité Audio said:
That’s simply not true, have a look at Archimago’s measurements of an IPhone, or over at ASR Amir has been measuring extremely inexpensive DACs which measure superbly, a ‘Topping ‘ is amongst the best at a couple of hundred pounds.
Keith
Click to expand...

barryb said:
Might've got your analogue wires crossed...
Click to expand...

awkwardbydesign said:
He doesn't actually read posts, you know.
Click to expand...

My god, this is why the SNR in this section is often insufferable ... some of you guys must live on soy products what with the amount of estrogen oozing from every nit-picky hausfrau post. Shit like this is far more irritating to me than anything users like Arkless post. I guess because it reminds me of my premenopausal ex picking at anything for a rise.

I thought Yomanze was referring to digital when I first hit "To get near good digital you need to [...]" too, but the context that followed cleared it up.

And so Purité Audio missed it, big whoopdeedoo. Let's rake him over rhetorical coals!
 
Anyway ... I listen to a lot of FM so maybe that's why some of vinyl's flaws don't bother me too much. And while more of my collection is in CDs than anything else, there's something more appealing for me in certain frequencies on vinyl, like cymbals, strings and saxes. They're more realistic. At least on my system.

My ears had a long break after early punishment from amplified live music and they test slightly above average for my age. About the only thing I can't take anymore is pronounced midrange -- such as electric guitars on some recordings .. unlistenable for me.
 
I don't read men's health magazines and it's not sexism so much as opinionism. As in how is it some of you can endlessly troll Foo threads without ever answering those seriously considered -and totally on-point- replies from someone with a contrary view but you have Trident Class radar with a hair trigger reply finger for trivial crap like a poster innocently misreading another poster's meaning? In net slang that's widely accepted as acting the little bitch. Hence why I'm wondering aloud if perhaps estrogen levels are a wee elevated.
 
You guys dig the jejune back and forth, doncha? I see it in a lot of threads.

Like any forum, there's always the little cliques where they upvote and-or post right after one another. And they're usually working to stay close to mods, either because they know they're actually the start of most OT petty stuff or they want those user reports to have some weight. One forum I visited years ago the staff used to call them "frequent report button flyers" since most of them practically live on the forums, wind others up and then hit the report button on those same users.

So strange it all is, this internet forum Hierarchy of Needs. Maslow FTW. Virtually!
 
There appear to some links between dementia and hearing loss, which may have to do with general cognitive processing, as distinct from physiological changes. I haven’t seen any studies that connect this with specific frequencies.

There’s plenty of medical research on the psychological effects of (age-related) hearing loss, e.g. hearing loss causing anxiety and depression -- but that wasn't what the OP asked and isn’t really relevant here.

However, there’s also evidence that the causation works the other way around, i.e. mental illness can affect hearing. For instance conditions such as anxiety and OCD can cause selective over-sensitivity to sound (misophonia). The reason this may be relevant to the OP is that problems like anxiety tend to grow worse with age. Also n.b. misophonia tends to be triggered by high frequencies more than low. So maybe for some people high frequencies become less tolerable with increasing age.
 
Ah back on track-ish, time to come back to my own thread. Thank to those who felt the need for a diversion.

Anyway I'm only 44 so hopefully dimentia doesn't yet have anything to do with my perception
 
orangeart said:
Ah back on track-ish, time to come back to my own thread. Thank to those who felt the need for a diversion.

Anyway I'm only 44 so hopefully dimentia doesn't yet have anything to do with my perception
Click to expand...

Ahem, I'm sure you're not suffering from it, but there is such a thing as early-onset dementia.
 
orangeart said:
My thoughts turned recently to the hearing difference between young ears and old, of course it is well understood that the physical mechamism of hearing changes over the years but what about the psychological?

...
When I tried to pin them down I got the impression from thier vague descriptions they were hearing a level of crappiness I wasn't. I don't think however that is a physical thing, I can still hear out to 17k quite well which is probably well past the recordings and the LP12 capability so what gives?
Click to expand...
Lots of points arising at once, but IMHO no mysteries

- not at all surprising that kids hear something differently, partly because their hearing will be better both in frequency range and in time domain areas (gap recognition etc), partly because their reference is different, and partly just because. There is some evidence that young people positively prefer mp3 over lossless

-different posters have emphasised to different degrees 1) sounds crappy 2) doesn't matter. The one conclusion to which most posters seem subliminally resistant is the one which would be obvious to most "norms"- fidelity beyond a fairly low level is not necessary for, nor does it deserve the credit for, musical enjoyment.

-why assume that more accurate= sounds better? There is plenty of evidence to contrary. For many types of music, distortion is your friend and compression is his attractive sister.

- if your original reference is the sound of vinyl, is it any wonder that digital might not sound quite right to you?

- I got a fairly good turntable a couple of years ago to play my old lps. It's fun but fidelity it is not. For classical music I find it laughably inferior to digital. For most rock/electronic music, it sounds fine. Maybe right in places.

None of this is a mystery unless one has got stuck down the rabbit hole of imagining that musical pleasure derives directly or ineluctably from fidelity.

btw if you're hearing at 17k is appreciable and you are over 45 I think you are doing very well.[edit I've just seen you are 44, but still...]
 
Last edited:
mattgbell said:
However, there’s also evidence that the causation works the other way around, i.e. mental illness can affect hearing. For instance conditions such as anxiety and OCD can cause selective over-sensitivity to sound (misophonia).
Click to expand...
When I was younger (20s and 30s) I was infuriated by surface noise, and would frequently take LPs back. I also think I had a form of OCD, but managed to relax, mainly through meditation. Both problems reduced markedly, and although I can still hear the surface noise, I don't obsess over it now. Nor do I have to count every stair and always start with my right foot! :D
I still have a peak in my hearing, which makes me sensitive to sibilance, but that's different.
 
Marky-Mark said:
You guys dig the jejune back and forth, doncha? I see it in a lot of threads.

Like any forum, there's always the little cliques where they upvote and-or post right after one another. And they're usually working to stay close to mods, either because they know they're actually the start of most OT petty stuff or they want those user reports to have some weight. One forum I visited years ago the staff used to call them "frequent report button flyers" since most of them practically live on the forums, wind others up and then hit the report button on those same users.
Click to expand...

So true and the same on just about any forum you care to mention.
 
awkwardbydesign said:
Have the kids heard other turntables? And if they did, were the reactions the same? I use an Oracle Delphi, which is a different beast.
Click to expand...

Some young things poring over the dogeared LP covers in The Music Exchange in Notthing Hill Gate had an ION record player. What are they , any good? never heard of them before
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top