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Worth moving from MC to MM to cheaply change phono styli more frequently?

Assuming the arm can balance it out you can easily add some extra mass at the headshell end. Hanging weight that far away from the pivot makes a big difference to the effective mass.
 
Graham67 said:
“…So in the right carefully constructed setup I consider that the (DENON) 103 can be superb but stick it on a typical modern deck with lighter arm and prepare to be disappointed.

In summary it may have taken many years but I'm now firmly in the 103 fan club…”
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+1.

With our springless LP12 and WAND PLUS tonearm (Naked Eff. Mass 13g) loaded up with all additional counterweights PLUS a 2g cart mounting plate - the DENON DL-103R feeding our TRICHORD DELPHINI 2-box phono with careful loading, delivers some of the best LP playback we have ever conjured.

The reason I started this thread, is to see if we can better the DENON sound - or get close - for less money, allowing more frequent, at home MM stylus replacement.

With this in mind - and based upon everything shared in this thread - I’m probably thinking the AT-VM740ML is the best starting point for my MM explorations.

If that does not satisfy, I’ll be trying the (much cheaper) original DENON DL-103.

@Graham67
How did you find the DENON DL-103R compares with the DL-103?
 
Well if we're still on the MM suggestions track, you may be interested in my affordable stylus/ affordable MM.. which has seen off the following over the past year: a 95ml, a 540ml, & even an MC(ml) at over double it's cost. Whether it's simply that I'm just not an AT fan, or, whether it suits my light-mass arm I'm not sure, but my Shelter 201 (£150 ish) although not as detailed in the 'upper half' as those ml's mentioned, is better at the lower half, has better sense of depth, realism, & most importantly it's more naturally musical/ better at engaging me with the music.

Detail retrieval.. isn't the most important thing, I concluded long ago. I think possibly the conical-shaped tip of the 103r & it's fans might be testament to this. I did try a 103r but found it too hard sounding/ unforgiving (but possibly a compliance mismatch with my light titanium 774 arm).

Capt
 
Great intel, @The Captain !

As a 20-year fan of our beloved SHELTER 501/2 - currently in retirement, but still performing beautifully - I hadn’t even considered the SHELTER 201.

But I do enjoy “airy” tops so perhaps the baby SHELTER might leave me wanting.

Solid food for thought. Appreciated.
 
@andyr

Hey Andy! It’s been a while…

Thanks for the good thoughts.

Generally, I find double-shipping (international) costs of re-tipping usually kills it.

I will make contact with Chris and ask the question.
 
@SONDEKNZ I think we all love the 'airy top' thing, I certainly do myself, but the ML's Ive tried where this is their forte/ strength, I find come at a cost of a bit of glassiness/ hardness. A bit artificial.

I forgot- there's a boron/ supefine tip (or whatever it's called) stylus upgrade to the £100 standard one for the 201. This would surely do the airy top trick, but at a cost (& out of reach for me @ around £200). Aftermarket? possibly. Jico?

There's just something about this Shelter, that tells me it's made by a person who just knows & loves music.. rather than made 'by a computer, ticking all the right technical boxes'. As Lp is to cd, is the best analogy albeit too simplistic.

I'd sure like to hear your 501! Capt

(btw I was up until 5am rooting for your Black Caps to win against Australia last week.. 40-4 & they still bloody won! The Heist At Hagley Park I called it)
 
@The Captain

Your comments play to my own deepest fears about moving to AUDIO-TECHNICA MM and losing the SHELTER / DENON “flesh and blood”.

Still, a lot of others enjoy the A-Ts so I guess one has to hear it with their own ears…
 
The Captain said:
@SONDEKNZ

“…There's just something about this Shelter, that tells me it's made by a person who just knows & loves music.. rather than made 'by a computer, ticking all the right technical boxes'. As Lp is to cd, is the best analogy albeit too simplistic.

I'd sure like to hear your 501! Capt”
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We agree 100%. Your comment sums it up nicely.

Next time you are in Hangzhou, China - we’ll have a good listen.

Go the BLACK CAPS!
 
The Captain said:
I forgot- there's a boron/ supefine tip (or whatever it's called) stylus upgrade to the £100 standard one for the 201. This would surely do the airy top trick, but at a cost (& out of reach for me @ around £200). Aftermarket? possibly. Jico?
Click to expand...

Interesting.

I’ll check it out…
 
There is a Vivid line and the Jico SAS/B available.
The latter is pretty close to new DL-103 territory in terms of price.

There are also a lot of vintage MMs available, with some good aftermarket styli available.
The problem is, finding the one you like the best.
I picked up a Technics EPC-U205 Mk III quite cheaply a few years ago, but prices are now getting very expensive.
 
CageyH said:
There is a Vivid line and the Jico SAS/B available.
The latter is pretty close to new DL-103 territory in terms of price.

There are also a lot of vintage MMs available, with some good aftermarket styli available.
The problem is, finding the one you like the best.
I picked up a Technics EPC-U205 Mk III quite cheaply a few years ago, but prices are now getting very expensive.
Click to expand...

I recall the legendary reputation of the GRACE F9E MM cart series.

I imagine one can still purchase quality aftermarket styli for them but not sure how they would compete with similar modern offerings, today.
 
Not that this will help the OP much but in case anyone is looking to buy an AT cartridge then eBay have a 15% off voucher running just now.

Here's an AT 740ML for example

www.ebay.co.uk

Audio Technica VM740ML MM Phono Cartridge - Moving Magnet Cart Pick-Up 740ML | eBay

an internationally-patented dual magnet design that is designed to replicate the shape of the original cutting head. Plus with outstanding high-frequency reproduction, the VM740ML enables clear sound localisation.
www.ebay.co.uk

£276 reduced to £235 and a further 1% off if you use Topcashback or Quidco 😉
 
This site contains affiliate links for which pink fish media may be compensated.
What has changed in cartridge design, except for cost cutting and possibly H&S measures?
Many modern “high end” MM cartridges now use aluminium cantilevers, where before we had beryllium and boron.
The old AT150mlx had a gold plated boron canti, the VM760SLC has an aluminium tapered pipe, and that is on a €699 MM cartridge.
 
Berylium and boron has become limited worldwide, guess price is increased considerably.
Alu is much more common and do the job.
 
SONDEKNZ said:
@The Captain

Your comments play to my own deepest fears about moving to AUDIO-TECHNICA MM and losing the SHELTER / DENON “flesh and blood”.

Still, a lot of others enjoy the A-Ts so I guess one has to hear it with their own ears…
Click to expand...

Indeed, alot like AT's because they extract more. Best bang for buckers etc. But for me with AT's yes it's having more on the table, but listening to a precise -recording- of the album. Well I mean with the ML's I've tried (& are frequently mentioned & suggested on your thread). It's innitially really impressive, the airy detailed top is all there, the 'boxes are ticked' from the off in your head.

But soon I wasn't listening, I wasn't engaged with my Lp's, as I previously had been with my Shelter even it having 'less on the table'; with the Shelter I'm convinced I'm listening to the players actually playing behind my speakers (with better depth).. not listening to a more detailed -impression- of them playing there.

I read a comment recently on pfm, someone said "the higher up the cart chain you go, the more it sounds like cd". Rash, but honest: on paper I took one big step up on this ladder & this comment was definitely spot-on: & in conclusion, I hadn't gone a step up. I'd in fact gone a step sideways, & also, a step down in terms of emotion.

Capt
 
@The Captain

I’m with you, Capt.

For me, truth of timber and dynamics are paramount. I suspect you are the same.

After all, if a steel string acoustic guitar doesn’t sound like one - complete with resinous guitar body, and secondary harmonics, etc. - who cares if you can hear the guitarist breathing?

Treated right, the SHELTER 501/2 and DENON DL-103R get these fidelity basics right.

This is why my interest keeps reverting to the REGA EXACT. I have read enough from MR PIG and others on this forum to suspect that the EXACT gets these music fundamentals very right - before all of the Audiophillia Nervosa demands and other musical distractions kick in.

If only the EXACT was a bit cheaper and offered home install styli replacement. 😂
 
The Shelter 201 looks remarkably similar to a Sumiko Pearl, which is much cheaper.
The specs are also very similar, suggesting they are based on the same generator?
 
Had a SUMIKO BLUE POINT SPECIAL cart once.

Horrible thing.

I was quietly relieved when I accidentally damaged it.

Then came the SHELTER 501/2!

I have no experience with other SUMIKO carts.
 
Sorry to be repetitive but if you do go back to MM, don’t forget to adjust the capacitance on the input accordingly to suit the cartridge. It can really define things. I have just reduced the capacitance on my phonoinput after learning that in the case of valve phonos, the Miller effect of the first valve (200pF approx.) must be added to the equation. When Joni hits the high notes on Blue, It can be the difference between understanding the lyrics and thinking she’s yodelling.
 
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