Worth moving from MC to MM to cheaply change phono styli more frequently?

[SONDEKNZ]

In another recent PFM thread, the true, healthy lifespan of phono styli was discussed at length - perhaps only 300-600 hours, before vinyl damage begins - prompting me to seek cost-effective alternatives to our current (favourite) DENON DL-103R, which mates nicely with our heavy WAND PLUS unipivot tonearm - on our springless LP12 hot-rod.

It was in my thinking that if I could find a great sounding MM cart - with VFM user-replacement styli - we'd be all set for regular styli upgrades.

MR PIG and others have long extolled the virtues of the REGA EXACT. I (finally) found the REGA EXACT for sale, available for around £245.83 Exc. VAT. I have been keen to try one.

Compared with the DENON DL-103R - available for £315.83 Exc. VAT, there is not a huge saving to be made over the (likely) 600-hour healthy lifespan of these carts.

I also see that a worn REGA EXACT also requires factory rebuild - versus a simple, VFM styli replacement. This may explain why the REGA sounds so good, but somewhat foils my big plan for regular MM stylus replacement at home.

I note the REGA also requires 3-point REGA mounting, whereas our WAND PLUS tonearm only allows for the traditional 2-point fastening. I'm not sure if the REGA can perform with just two screws. Anyone tried it?

Unless something like an AUDIO TECHNICA AT-VM95ML - available for £128.33 Exc. VAT, PLUS offering VFM stylus-only replacement for £112.49 Exc. VAT (LOVE THAT!) - can compete sonically with the likes of the DENON DL 103/103R (my gut tells me that it is very unlikely) I cannot see us moving from the DENON camp.

Another great VFM option is the original DENON DL-103 - available for £249.17 Exc. VAT - which would appear to be quite the bargain, although I have never tried one. I'm not sure I would hear the difference between the two big DENONS, but our phono stage can easily cater for either. Knowing its legendary following, at the price of the DL-103, I am sorely tempted...

Meanwhile our 20-year-old SHELTER 501/2 - with perfect posture - sits idle, in an attempt to NOT push it into vinyl-damaging mileage. The cost of shipping-retipping-shipping just seems to be prohibitive.

The upshot of all this is, that I'm finding that downgrading from MC to MM not as cost-effective as I would have hoped.

What have I missed?

 

[Jazzer]

In another recent PFM thread, the true, healthy lifespan of phono styli was discussed at length - perhaps only 300-600 hours, before vinyl damage begins - prompting me to seek cost-effective alternatives to our current (favourite) DENON DL-103R, which mates nicely with our heavy WAND PLUS unipivot tonearm - on our springless LP12 hot-rod.

It was in my thinking that if I could find a great sounding MM cart - with VFM user-replacement styli - we'd be all set for regular styli upgrades.

MR PIG and others have long extolled the virtues of the REGA EXACT. I (finally) found the REGA EXACT for sale, available for around £245.83 Exc. VAT. I have been keen to try one.

Compared with the DENON DL-103R - available for £315.83 Exc. VAT, there is not a huge saving to be made over the (likely) 600-hourhealthy lifespan of these carts. I also see that a worn REGA EXACT also requires factory rebuild - versus a simple, VFM styli replacement. This may explain why the REGA sounds so good, but somewhat foils my big plan for regular MM stylus replacement at home.

I see the REGA also requires 3-point REGA mounting, whereas our WAND PLUS tonearm only allows for the traditional 2-point fastening. I'm not sure if the REGA can perform with just two screws. Anyone tried it?

Unless something like an AUDIO TECHNICA AT-VM95ML - available for £128.33 Exc. VAT, PLUS offering VFM stylus-only replacement for £112.49 Exc. VAT (LOVE THAT!) - can compete sonically with the likes of the DENON DL 103/103R (my gut tells me that it is very unlikely) I cannot see us moving from the DENON camp.

Another great VFM option is the original DENON DL-103 - available for £249.17 Exc. VAT - which would appear to be quite the bargain, although I have never tried one. I'm not sure I would hear the difference between the two big DENONS, but our phono stage can easily cater for either. Knowing its legendary following, at the price of the DL-103, I am sorely tempted...

Meanwhile our 20-year-old SHELTER 501/2 - with perfect posture - sits idle, in an attempt to NOT push it into vinyl-damaging mileage. The cost of shipping-retipping-shipping just seems to be prohibitive.

The upshot of all this is, that I'm finding that downgrading from MC to MM not as cost-effective as I would have hoped.

What have I missed?

I use an LP12 with an Ittok LV11.
About 16 years ago I was using a Goldring 1042 and I wanted to try a MC cartridge.
Denon 103R was getting very good reviews so I bought one.
It sounded very good but I broke the cantilever after a few months while putting the guard back on.

I was going to get another one, but an AT33PTG came up direct from Japan and actually cost less than a replacement 103R, so I bought it and never looked back.
That was everything thing that the 103R was and more.
Especially on inner grooves where the 103R wasn’t so good, in my view.
I kept the AT33PTG for ten years and replaced it with the AT33PTG mk 2, which was just as good if not better.
Sadly I burned out a coil while doing some work on my home made Phono amp.
I am retired now so can’t afford even mid range MC cartridges anymore and I am not getting any less clumsy. Lol
So I went for AT VM540 as I love the ml stylus.
It is different to the 33PTG in some ways but it isn’t overall a worse sounding cartridge, in my view.
I recommend it highly…l

 

[gerlando]

I would go to to a Microlinear stylus, so:
AT-VM95ML;
AT-VM540ML;
AT-VM740ML;
depending on how much you want to spend.

 

[MVV]

I’ve always used MC carts, in the old days £2k plus Linn ones. Now slumming it in Ortofon Cadenza land which I much prefer. However still in it’s box is a MM Audio note cart waiting to go on the Amadeus GTa. The plan is to get the Amadeus re strung and glooped and get it fitted. I will report when I get round to it.
A key motivator is that it will be a perfect match for the AN MM only phono stage in the amp which will mean I can ditch the SUT.

 

[Moonbuggy]

So, you're looking for a low compliance MM to mate with your heavy tonearm. I would recommend the Denon DL109. Obviously vintage, but nice examples can be sourced from Japan. The D stylus is elliptical and the R is spherical. I have both and much like the 103, the R can get a bit ragged on inner groove with densely stacked tracks. The D however, is fabulous. Scott Nagel Audio lists both stylii, but the D is on back order and he can't give any indication of when stock might arrive unfortunately.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

I would go to to a Microlinear stylus, so:
AT-VM95ML;
AT-VM540ML;
AT-VM740ML;
depending on how much you want to spend.

Thanks for these recommendations.

The VM95 range are certainly a lot cheaper than the big DENON DL-103 carts and the replacement stylus is a big attraction.

The fact that a conical stylus option is on offer also appeals as this typically negates the need for alignment perfection.

But it is so much cheaper, I just have to wonder if it would compete with a MC on sound quality basis.

Have you tested any of these - in the same system - compared to either the big DENON DL-103 or DL-103R?

There are so many variables in analog, same system is the only way to determine what you are hearing...

 

[Jazzer]

Thanks for these recommendations.

The VM95 range are certainly a lot cheaper than the big DENON DL-103 carts and the replacement stylus is a big attraction.

The fact that a conical stylus option is on offer also appeals as this typically negates the need for alignment perfection.

But it is so much cheaper, I just have to wonder if it would compete with a MC on sound quality basis.

Have you tested any of these - in the same system - compared to either the big DENON DL-103 or DL-103R?

There are so many variables in analog, same system is the only way to determine what you are hearing...

In my system and on my arm, all of the AT ml stylii were preferred over the conical 103R.
They are not critical about alignment either.
No worse than any other cartridge that I have tried.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

In my system and on my arm, all of the AT ml stylii were preferred over the conical 103R.
They are not critical about alignment either.
No worse than any other cartridge that I have tried.

Great intel... Appreciated.

 

[gerlando]

Thanks for these recommendations.

The VM95 range are certainly a lot cheaper than the big DENON DL-103 carts and the replacement stylus is a big attraction.

The fact that a conical stylus option is on offer also appeals as this typically negates the need for alignment perfection.

But it is so much cheaper, I just have to wonder if it would compete with a MC on sound quality basis.

Have you tested any of these - in the same system - compared to either the big DENON DL-103 or DL-103R?

There are so many variables in analog, same system is the only way to determine what you are hearing...

if you like conical stylii you can try a VM95C. Outstanding in some respects and with an unbeatable price at £29.

Perfectly compatible with the VMN95ML, you can swap stylii in 1 min.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

if you like conical styli you can try a VM95C. Outstanding in some respects and with an unbeatable price at £29.

Perfectly compatible with the VMN95ML, you can swap styli in 1 min.

I'm thinking the same thoughts.

At the price, one can afford to suck-it-and-see - and at very worst, have a very serviceable back-up cart.

If it competes with the big DENON DLs, all the better!

(I see a useful review in the making... )

 

[Tony L]

Another great VFM option is the original DENON DL-103 - available for £249.17 Exc. VAT - which would appear to be quite the bargain, although I have never tried one. I'm not sure I would hear the difference between the two big DENONS, but our phono stage can easily cater for either. Knowing its legendary following, at the price of the DL-103, I am sorely tempted...

Everyone has to try a DL-103 IMO (Amazon link). It is a legendary audio product and with good reason. It gets so much right. Not perfect, there are limits to a conical tip and low compliance, but it does things very, very right that a lot of more expensive carts can’t dream of. The cult following is deserved. It likes a fairly massy arm. If your primary interest is jazz it may be the only cartridge you need to consider. It sails through Blue Notes etc with the very best.

 

[SONDEKNZ]

Thanks for all the good thoughts.

So,

DENON DL-103R MC (or DL-103) versus AUDIO TECHNICA AT-VM95 MM (SH/ML/EN/E/C/other?)

Anyone done a direct comparison?

 

[SONDEKNZ]

"Everyone has to try a DL-103 IMO (Amazon link)... "

Is the DL-103 substantially different to the DL-103R, in your experience. Tony?

We are happily using the DL-103R, but the DL-103 costs GBP 80.00 less; not loose change, if one expects to replace the cartridge every 300-600 hours...

 

[Mr Pig]

I also see that a worn REGA EXACT also requires factory rebuild - versus a simple, VFM styli replacement. This may explain why the REGA sounds so good, but somewhat foils my big plan for regular MM stylus replacement at home.

Certainly not as convenient but the Rega rebuild scheme is very good value. I have an Ania Pro and the exchange price on that is £350 which is fantastic for a cartridge that costs over £800. by contrast the Audio Technica VM760 SLC costs about £600 and the stylus for it only cost around £100 less than the entire cartridge!

You don't need to use the extra mounting hole on Rega cartridges. They work fine with two but it does sound a little different. Not a deal breaker and I've seen a couple of people using Rega MC carts on non Rega arms.

But to your main point, yes I think you can enjoy a good MM cart just as much as a good MC. You lose something but MM carts have their own charms. System matching counts for a lot as always but MM carts can make great sense.

 

[John]

Seems pretty crazy to think you need to change styli after 600 hours, but carryon.

 

[Mr Pig]

Seems pretty crazy to think you need to change styli after 600 hours, but carry on.

I agree. I don't think you can be very exact about it at all and I think the issue of record wear is just as much a mystery. I've got records that are forty years old have been played on all kinds of record players yet still sound excellent.

 

[Simon s]

It doesn't have the same sound signature of the Denon but another inevitable vote for the AT 540ML here. You don't need the more expensive 740 version. Only £229 new with replaceable stylus. Good for more miles than 600 i would wager. IMHO beats all carts under £600 if you like its sound signature.

 

[Tony L]

Is the DL-103 substantially different to the DL-103R, in your experience. Tony?

I’ve never personally tried the R, though what I’ve read as its apparent advantages suggests I may not prefer it. As such I can’t really comment. Whenever I fancy a DL-103 I just buy a DO-103! I’ve actually got a close to brand new one in a SME headshell for whenever I fancy trying one again, it isn’t in use at present as for some reason the Verdier preamp hums when the internal step-up transformers are enabled. Earthing is a nightmare in vintage systems!

 

[Amber Audio]

Thanks for all the good thoughts.

So,

DENON DL-103R MC (or DL-103) versus AUDIO TECHNICA AT-VM95 MM (SH/ML/EN/E/C/other?)

Anyone done a direct comparison?

Had all bar the Shibata, I’d take a RigB VM95ML over any of the options you’ve listed. Suits the type of music/records I play, admittedly quite different from most of the stuff I see posted on the what are you listening to threads on pfm - zero Jazz or Classical and very little big name 60’s/70’s stuff. The Denon‘s are OK but nothing amazing imho, sold them on fairly quickly and I don’t sell much on, worst cart I’d had recent years was a 2M Red total nail imo. I’d take a 33PTG/II every day of the week over any MM I’ve heard.

Regarding the 3 to 600 hour, I’ve always run carts way longer than that and am still spinning records bought 40 odd years ago that sound just fine, first ever LP bought in ’78 and played to death still sounds great, played it on 4 different decks/carts this week. I’ve retired carts for dodgy suspensions and cantilevers but not worn out diamonds, keeping stuff properly clean must help for sure - tip and cart gubbins.

 

[Robn]

Have experienced numerous MMs and enjoyed many of them, old Shure V15s on SME 3009s, the Roksan Corus Black ( a modified Goldring 1042 I think) on a Rega 3, but when I fitted a Dynavector 10X5 also on a Rega I found I preferred the sound, maybe the tonal balance was just different but it seemed to have more detail whilst not losing the whole picture. Better still was the 33PTG, it felt like a massive all round step up at the time without any trade offs, it was still sounding great when I sold it to but the 33PTG mkII. This also sounds great but I find the diminutive cantilever difficult to see when cueing and that sometimes makes me nervous so in a way I preferred the mk1.