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WOKE and Me Too

I would imagine that the hardest thing about being trans is cis people and that most cis people have no antipathy towards trans people.
They are not mutually exclusive ideas.
 
flatpopely said:
You would be surprised at how many birth gender humans have no antipathy to trans people. I suspect the many not the few.
Click to expand...

The statistics suggest that the vast majority of people who know a trans person have positive feelings towards them and the vast majority of people who don't largely don't care. The gender critical voices we constantly hear in the press are a tiny minority of people amplified out of all proportion.

FWIW I don't find the term cis-male to be offensive any more than straight male. I think it's important that we don't fall into the trap of labelling some people as 'other' while everyone else gets to be 'normal'.

From wiki:

Cisnormativity is widespread in society. It manifests in speech as a separation of cisgender and transgender people where cisgender individuals are considered "normal" and transgender people, an exception.

Cisnormativity is present in the way cisgender people are addressed without qualification as "men" or "women", while trans individuals often are consistently referred to as trans men or women, regardless of context. That is, being cisgender is considered normal, while being trans requires clarification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisnormativity
 
MVV said:
I would imagine that the hardest thing about being trans is cis people and that most cis people have no antipathy towards trans people.
They are not mutually exclusive ideas.
Click to expand...
So most birth gender people have no antipathy towards trans people?
 
TheDecameron said:
The coy little “I didn’t pick this fight, the fight came to me” routine, “I find myself in an unmarked minefield”, “I’m at risk of getting my throat cut”. You’re entirely unconcerned yet here you are expending a fascinating lot of ink about it. Your “invented community” BS is the same as your reduction of Syrian war refugees rendered by you as “Arabian diaspora” who won’t fit in culturally in Britain, as though they were shopping around for a long term let for a change of scenery. Multicultural London boroughs become crime infested ghettos in your language and Albanian migrants are reduced to crime profiles as rapists and paedophiles pretending to be school boys in order to access victims.

You’re at your best when you keep it short and blurt out when you’ve momentarily forgotten where you are.
Click to expand...

I find it fascinating when you repeatedly scrape the same dried up old barrel in your ever-desperate attempts to brand me a racist, and thus get me booted off of the forum. Context is always useful;

In August 2020 you were puffing yourself up about the relative proportions of Syrian refugees re-homed on the Isle of Bute compared with the rest of the UK (under the then Conservative government's 2015 Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme), and I wrote;

"It is an interesting social experiment. Of the 28 families that were originally housed on Bute, 7 apparently left fairly quickly for reasons of family or work. Both the population and the economy there are pretty decrepit, there can't be exactly a stack of opportunities for work as gillies or fishermen. The cynical in me wonders if perhaps Argyll & Bute Council saw an opportunity to create a resident population of arse-wipers for the significant and increasing numbers of geriatrics who reside there. Perhaps I should try not to be cynical, but really? What the hell are these people from the Arabian diaspora going to do on a cold, stormy and remote island off of the Scottish mainland? The enterprising amongst them have established businesses, a couple of takeaways, a bakery and a barbers, but that's not employment for 100 people. Where are their cultural connections? Where can they worship? It all seems a bit bizarre, the stuff of a rather beautiful, heartwarming screenplay, perhaps, but reality? I'm not convinced, though happy to be disabused if I'm wrong.

The cash for this, incidentally, was originally provided from the UK's overseas aid budget, which is amongst the highest in the world. I recall that substantial sums were going into refugee camps in Jordan, a location which, should peace return, would permit these people to return to their homeland rather more easily than from Bute."

The following year OpenDemocracy reported;

"The café’s huge popularity has propelled the opening of a new branch on the edge of Glasgow, but other Syrian businesses have not done so well. Two takeaway restaurants and a food truck that started with local support have not opened for months. The pandemic has not helped, but the barber Darsani suggested there’s just a limited market. People are curious about Syrian food, but do not want to eat it every week. Similarly, the island offers his barbershop a steady number of customers but no increase, and he has dreams of growth.

The loyalty of his customers and those at Helmi’s Patisserie might reflect the businesses’ high quality of service as well as a kind of ethical consumerism. “A slight moral glow attends you if you go in there. You think you’re doing good here, buying this stuff from someone who had to leave their homeland because life was unsupportable,” said summer resident Ian Jack about Helmi’s.

Still, the Bute resettlement initiative has not been wholly successful. Of the 34 families resettled on Bute, 20 have subsequently moved to Glasgow, Liverpool, or elsewhere for familial links or urban amenities. Even Darsani now commutes from the mainland (where he’s opened a second barbershop) to run his Rothesay salon two days a week, saying the lack of restaurants serving halal food, mosques or Arab shops contributed to his reason to leave."

Island life is not for everyone, and many of the families have come from cities – despite the Home Office’s aim not to resettle families from urban areas to remote settings. Nor is the challenge unique to Bute: UNHCR found that “some of the refugees resettled in small towns and rural areas of the UK found the process more complicated than for those in major cosmopolitan cities.”

On the matter of the Albanians, last October (2022) I wrote in response to droodzilla, who had just accused me of 'peddling racist filth';

Lets try to put some nuance into this, fill in the gaps contained in my ill-judged flippancy about Albanians coming over here to partake in and benefit from the UK's burgeoning narcotics trade. Any cursory glance into the internet will set out you how highly organised Albanian gangs now completely dominate the £multi-billion trade in cocaine in the UK, and are deeply entrenched in the supply of the drug through Columbia, Bolivia & Ecuador via Rotterdam and into Harwich, Felixstowe and Liverpool, how that trade is intimately bound up in the sickening increases in urban gang warfare, and progresses via the so-called 'county lines' onto the dinner tables of the middle and upper class smart set. It is a trail littered from beginning to end with violence, dehumanisation, poverty, intimidation, and, in their thousands, corpses.

If you think that none of this is connected with the fact that Albanian gangs are starting to dominate the trafficking of - increasingly young, male Albanian - asylum-seekers into the UK, and not only via the Channel, then you are either naive, so caught up in your own patronising, arrogant self-righteosity that you are in denial, or simply stupid. It patently isn't the latter, so its one of the others.

A not insubstantial chunk of Albanian society exists at or below the poverty line, with employment hard to find, and wages poor or insufficient, and by our standards, pitiful. There is a large population of young people who are highly vulnerable to the sophisticated charms of traffickers, with social media enticing with promises of the unimaginable wealth available to them in Britain, and flamboyant displays of the proceeds of British aquired cash in their home towns. Having somehow paid the often 'discounted' fee for the crossing, they may well then be told that they owe still more money, and that they will have to work off the debt by becoming 'gardeners' (employed in vast underground cannabis farms), by becoming county lines runners, or by being peddled into prostitution. Many, but nobody seems to be able to tell us how many, just fall through the inept immigration and asylum system and disappear into this underworld of crime. Others are undoubtedly tutored into gaming the system. I am certain that there are those who have reasonable or valid claims to asylum, and who progress into, and contribute to, society, but I'm equally certain that many don't. And I am absolutely certain that trafficking people across the Channel is a criminal activity, and a criminal activity that feeds and is itself succoured by some of the very worst kinds of organised thuggery.

Now, by all means debate these points. Set it out to me where you think I am wrong, or if you believe I have been rinsed by rw propaganda, tell me where, and how (and I'm afraid that screaming Farage/Hannan/Telegraph/Spectator/Daily Mail/Braverman/Patel etc is unlikely to cut it). I'm happy to debate. But don't just shut me down with hysterical squawks of 'racist filth'. Quite apart from the fact that it demeans you, it represents a nasty trend that is actually actively dangerous.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/13/kings-of-cocaine-albanian-mafia-uk-drugs-crime

https://exit.al/en/2022/10/04/why-are-albanians-fleeing-for-the-uk/

https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvn3d3/albania-drugs-traffickers-london

https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7n...revent-albanian-teens-from-becoming-gangsters

https://irpimedia.irpi.eu/en-albanian-mafia-uk-cocaine-supply/

etc, etc...I've avoided anything from The Telegraph, The Times or hopefully anything else that might upset hair-trigger liberal sensibilities."

To which the best that drood could offer was to mutter something about verbiage and the pretty hollow and pathetic 'same old scapegoaty, racist shit'.
 
eternumviti said:
I find it fascinating when you repeatedly scrape the same dried up old barrel in your ever-desperate attempts to brand me a racist, and thus get me booted off of the forum. Context is always useful;

In August 2020 you were puffing yourself up about the relative proportions of Syrian refugees re-homed on the Isle of Bute compared with the rest of the UK (under the then Conservative government's 2015 Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme), and I wrote;

"It is an interesting social experiment. Of the 28 families that were originally housed on Bute, 7 apparently left fairly quickly for reasons of family or work. Both the population and the economy there are pretty decrepit, there can't be exactly a stack of opportunities for work as gillies or fishermen. The cynical in me wonders if perhaps Argyll & Bute Council saw an opportunity to create a resident population of arse-wipers for the significant and increasing numbers of geriatrics who reside there. Perhaps I should try not to be cynical, but really? What the hell are these people from the Arabian diaspora going to do on a cold, stormy and remote island off of the Scottish mainland? The enterprising amongst them have established businesses, a couple of takeaways, a bakery and a barbers, but that's not employment for 100 people. Where are their cultural connections? Where can they worship? It all seems a bit bizarre, the stuff of a rather beautiful, heartwarming screenplay, perhaps, but reality? I'm not convinced, though happy to be disabused if I'm wrong.

The cash for this, incidentally, was originally provided from the UK's overseas aid budget, which is amongst the highest in the world. I recall that substantial sums were going into refugee camps in Jordan, a location which, should peace return, would permit these people to return to their homeland rather more easily than from Bute."

The following year OpenDemocracy reported;

"The café’s huge popularity has propelled the opening of a new branch on the edge of Glasgow, but other Syrian businesses have not done so well. Two takeaway restaurants and a food truck that started with local support have not opened for months. The pandemic has not helped, but the barber Darsani suggested there’s just a limited market. People are curious about Syrian food, but do not want to eat it every week. Similarly, the island offers his barbershop a steady number of customers but no increase, and he has dreams of growth.

The loyalty of his customers and those at Helmi’s Patisserie might reflect the businesses’ high quality of service as well as a kind of ethical consumerism. “A slight moral glow attends you if you go in there. You think you’re doing good here, buying this stuff from someone who had to leave their homeland because life was unsupportable,” said summer resident Ian Jack about Helmi’s.

Still, the Bute resettlement initiative has not been wholly successful. Of the 34 families resettled on Bute, 20 have subsequently moved to Glasgow, Liverpool, or elsewhere for familial links or urban amenities. Even Darsani now commutes from the mainland (where he’s opened a second barbershop) to run his Rothesay salon two days a week, saying the lack of restaurants serving halal food, mosques or Arab shops contributed to his reason to leave."

Island life is not for everyone, and many of the families have come from cities – despite the Home Office’s aim not to resettle families from urban areas to remote settings. Nor is the challenge unique to Bute: UNHCR found that “some of the refugees resettled in small towns and rural areas of the UK found the process more complicated than for those in major cosmopolitan cities.”

On the matter of the Albanians, last October (2022) I wrote in response to droodzilla, who had just accused me of 'peddling racist filth';

Lets try to put some nuance into this, fill in the gaps contained in my ill-judged flippancy about Albanians coming over here to partake in and benefit from the UK's burgeoning narcotics trade. Any cursory glance into the internet will set out you how highly organised Albanian gangs now completely dominate the £multi-billion trade in cocaine in the UK, and are deeply entrenched in the supply of the drug through Columbia, Bolivia & Ecuador via Rotterdam and into Harwich, Felixstowe and Liverpool, how that trade is intimately bound up in the sickening increases in urban gang warfare, and progresses via the so-called 'county lines' onto the dinner tables of the middle and upper class smart set. It is a trail littered from beginning to end with violence, dehumanisation, poverty, intimidation, and, in their thousands, corpses.

If you think that none of this is connected with the fact that Albanian gangs are starting to dominate the trafficking of - increasingly young, male Albanian - asylum-seekers into the UK, and not only via the Channel, then you are either naive, so caught up in your own patronising, arrogant self-righteosity that you are in denial, or simply stupid. It patently isn't the latter, so its one of the others.

A not insubstantial chunk of Albanian society exists at or below the poverty line, with employment hard to find, and wages poor or insufficient, and by our standards, pitiful. There is a large population of young people who are highly vulnerable to the sophisticated charms of traffickers, with social media enticing with promises of the unimaginable wealth available to them in Britain, and flamboyant displays of the proceeds of British aquired cash in their home towns. Having somehow paid the often 'discounted' fee for the crossing, they may well then be told that they owe still more money, and that they will have to work off the debt by becoming 'gardeners' (employed in vast underground cannabis farms), by becoming county lines runners, or by being peddled into prostitution. Many, but nobody seems to be able to tell us how many, just fall through the inept immigration and asylum system and disappear into this underworld of crime. Others are undoubtedly tutored into gaming the system. I am certain that there are those who have reasonable or valid claims to asylum, and who progress into, and contribute to, society, but I'm equally certain that many don't. And I am absolutely certain that trafficking people across the Channel is a criminal activity, and a criminal activity that feeds and is itself succoured by some of the very worst kinds of organised thuggery.

Now, by all means debate these points. Set it out to me where you think I am wrong, or if you believe I have been rinsed by rw propaganda, tell me where, and how (and I'm afraid that screaming Farage/Hannan/Telegraph/Spectator/Daily Mail/Braverman/Patel etc is unlikely to cut it). I'm happy to debate. But don't just shut me down with hysterical squawks of 'racist filth'. Quite apart from the fact that it demeans you, it represents a nasty trend that is actually actively dangerous.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/13/kings-of-cocaine-albanian-mafia-uk-drugs-crime

https://exit.al/en/2022/10/04/why-are-albanians-fleeing-for-the-uk/

https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvn3d3/albania-drugs-traffickers-london

https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7n...revent-albanian-teens-from-becoming-gangsters

https://irpimedia.irpi.eu/en-albanian-mafia-uk-cocaine-supply/

etc, etc...I've avoided anything from The Telegraph, The Times or hopefully anything else that might upset hair-trigger liberal sensibilities."

To which the best that drood could offer was to mutter something about verbiage and the pretty hollow and pathetic 'same old scapegoaty, racist shit'.
Click to expand...
Gotta be a gag!
 
flatpopely said:
So most birth gender people have no antipathy towards trans people?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Which is why the moral panic our politicians seem so keen would appear to be almost entirely manufactured.

Some statistics here: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/attitudes_to_transgender_people.pdf

Note that the figures suggest acceptance of trans people isn't cut across left/right party lines - it's broadly similar. Also that the majority of people polled were comfortable with trans women using shelters for women who have suffered domestic abuse.

As you say, for most people it's a total non-issue.
 
MVV said:
You didn’t. I was commenting on the breeze block of text.

“This report by its very length, defends itself against the risk of being read.”

Winston Churchill
Click to expand...
I would argue against that. Though not for long.

I know what you mean about excessive verbiage being used to muddy any clear blue water in a sea of unnecessary dribble, but there is no unnecessary dribble in EV’s posts. He is very clear in his meaning and yet still gets selectively misquoted out of context for purposes that have little to do with getting down the the nuts and bolts of the issue being contested.
 
eternumviti said:
I find it fascinating when you repeatedly scrape the same dried up old barrel in your ever-desperate attempts to brand me a racist, and thus get me booted off of the forum. Context is always useful;

In August 2020 you were puffing yourself up about the relative proportions of Syrian refugees re-homed on the Isle of Bute compared with the rest of the UK (under the then Conservative government's 2015 Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme), and I wrote;

"It is an interesting social experiment. Of the 28 families that were originally housed on Bute, 7 apparently left fairly quickly for reasons of family or work. Both the population and the economy there are pretty decrepit, there can't be exactly a stack of opportunities for work as gillies or fishermen. The cynical in me wonders if perhaps Argyll & Bute Council saw an opportunity to create a resident population of arse-wipers for the significant and increasing numbers of geriatrics who reside there. Perhaps I should try not to be cynical, but really? What the hell are these people from the Arabian diaspora going to do on a cold, stormy and remote island off of the Scottish mainland? The enterprising amongst them have established businesses, a couple of takeaways, a bakery and a barbers, but that's not employment for 100 people. Where are their cultural connections? Where can they worship? It all seems a bit bizarre, the stuff of a rather beautiful, heartwarming screenplay, perhaps, but reality? I'm not convinced, though happy to be disabused if I'm wrong.

The cash for this, incidentally, was originally provided from the UK's overseas aid budget, which is amongst the highest in the world. I recall that substantial sums were going into refugee camps in Jordan, a location which, should peace return, would permit these people to return to their homeland rather more easily than from Bute."

The following year OpenDemocracy reported;

"The café’s huge popularity has propelled the opening of a new branch on the edge of Glasgow, but other Syrian businesses have not done so well. Two takeaway restaurants and a food truck that started with local support have not opened for months. The pandemic has not helped, but the barber Darsani suggested there’s just a limited market. People are curious about Syrian food, but do not want to eat it every week. Similarly, the island offers his barbershop a steady number of customers but no increase, and he has dreams of growth.

The loyalty of his customers and those at Helmi’s Patisserie might reflect the businesses’ high quality of service as well as a kind of ethical consumerism. “A slight moral glow attends you if you go in there. You think you’re doing good here, buying this stuff from someone who had to leave their homeland because life was unsupportable,” said summer resident Ian Jack about Helmi’s.

Still, the Bute resettlement initiative has not been wholly successful. Of the 34 families resettled on Bute, 20 have subsequently moved to Glasgow, Liverpool, or elsewhere for familial links or urban amenities. Even Darsani now commutes from the mainland (where he’s opened a second barbershop) to run his Rothesay salon two days a week, saying the lack of restaurants serving halal food, mosques or Arab shops contributed to his reason to leave."

Island life is not for everyone, and many of the families have come from cities – despite the Home Office’s aim not to resettle families from urban areas to remote settings. Nor is the challenge unique to Bute: UNHCR found that “some of the refugees resettled in small towns and rural areas of the UK found the process more complicated than for those in major cosmopolitan cities.”

On the matter of the Albanians, last October (2022) I wrote in response to droodzilla, who had just accused me of 'peddling racist filth';

Lets try to put some nuance into this, fill in the gaps contained in my ill-judged flippancy about Albanians coming over here to partake in and benefit from the UK's burgeoning narcotics trade. Any cursory glance into the internet will set out you how highly organised Albanian gangs now completely dominate the £multi-billion trade in cocaine in the UK, and are deeply entrenched in the supply of the drug through Columbia, Bolivia & Ecuador via Rotterdam and into Harwich, Felixstowe and Liverpool, how that trade is intimately bound up in the sickening increases in urban gang warfare, and progresses via the so-called 'county lines' onto the dinner tables of the middle and upper class smart set. It is a trail littered from beginning to end with violence, dehumanisation, poverty, intimidation, and, in their thousands, corpses.

If you think that none of this is connected with the fact that Albanian gangs are starting to dominate the trafficking of - increasingly young, male Albanian - asylum-seekers into the UK, and not only via the Channel, then you are either naive, so caught up in your own patronising, arrogant self-righteosity that you are in denial, or simply stupid. It patently isn't the latter, so its one of the others.

A not insubstantial chunk of Albanian society exists at or below the poverty line, with employment hard to find, and wages poor or insufficient, and by our standards, pitiful. There is a large population of young people who are highly vulnerable to the sophisticated charms of traffickers, with social media enticing with promises of the unimaginable wealth available to them in Britain, and flamboyant displays of the proceeds of British aquired cash in their home towns. Having somehow paid the often 'discounted' fee for the crossing, they may well then be told that they owe still more money, and that they will have to work off the debt by becoming 'gardeners' (employed in vast underground cannabis farms), by becoming county lines runners, or by being peddled into prostitution. Many, but nobody seems to be able to tell us how many, just fall through the inept immigration and asylum system and disappear into this underworld of crime. Others are undoubtedly tutored into gaming the system. I am certain that there are those who have reasonable or valid claims to asylum, and who progress into, and contribute to, society, but I'm equally certain that many don't. And I am absolutely certain that trafficking people across the Channel is a criminal activity, and a criminal activity that feeds and is itself succoured by some of the very worst kinds of organised thuggery.

Now, by all means debate these points. Set it out to me where you think I am wrong, or if you believe I have been rinsed by rw propaganda, tell me where, and how (and I'm afraid that screaming Farage/Hannan/Telegraph/Spectator/Daily Mail/Braverman/Patel etc is unlikely to cut it). I'm happy to debate. But don't just shut me down with hysterical squawks of 'racist filth'. Quite apart from the fact that it demeans you, it represents a nasty trend that is actually actively dangerous.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/13/kings-of-cocaine-albanian-mafia-uk-drugs-crime

https://exit.al/en/2022/10/04/why-are-albanians-fleeing-for-the-uk/

https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvn3d3/albania-drugs-traffickers-london

https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7n...revent-albanian-teens-from-becoming-gangsters

https://irpimedia.irpi.eu/en-albanian-mafia-uk-cocaine-supply/

etc, etc...I've avoided anything from The Telegraph, The Times or hopefully anything else that might upset hair-trigger liberal sensibilities."

To which the best that drood could offer was to mutter something about verbiage and the pretty hollow and pathetic 'same old scapegoaty, racist shit'.
Click to expand...

Just change Albanian for Russian Jew and you have exactly the same BS, exactly the same racist filth circa 1880. The cocaine trade is run by wealthy Europeans from all nations as it's the easiest and most convenient "currency" to trade in. This is doubly so , since cash in large amounts, is now scruitnised by virtually every European nation.

Whoever happen to be the largest contingent are this week's rulers. it was the Romanians last year. This is just another face to "The White Man's Burden" BS, "Why oh why can't these damn foreigners be like us and just sell opium by the ton to the Chinese whether they like it or not?".

Plus, if you believe that the Gurudian is remotely left-wing or progressive, I have a garden bridge you'd be mad not to invest in.

There was a time when there was a mass migration and they "Ran a drug trade", It was in 1978 following thee fall of the Shah of Persia and thousands of Iranians fled to the UK and were allowed in , no questions asked, carrying huge amounts of pure raw heroin. To the extent that , the street price in London dropped from 70 quid a gramme to 40 quid a gramme in the space of 3 months. However, they were mostly middle and upper middle class Iranians, who were thoroughly anglicised, so the Mail et al never said a word about it. I know cos I was there, my then Bass player was a minor aristo German addict who lived on the notorious "White City estate" with " the right honourable" addict wife.

I have still never seen as much cocaine at a house party as I saw in 1980 at the hall owned by one of the UK's oldest legal families and I've been in the music biz for 45 years.

Again isn't it strange how, people like you never talk about how, a huge number of those involved in the sex trade come from deeply religious backgrounds? Why is that? Why is it you choose to ignore that, strictly religious parents , of all creeds, breed generation after generation of sex worker no matter what culture they might stem from? That is, the very values of the people you simp for, are often, a huge part of the issue that causes facilitates the "crimes" you are so worried about, in the first place?

I'm guessing they had you in mind when they penned this...

The schools now: It is all about self-esteem in the schools now.
Build the kids' self-esteem, make them feel good about themselves.
If everybody grows up with high self-esteem, who is going to dance in our strip clubs?
What's going to happen to our porno industry?
These women don't just grow on trees.
It takes lots of drunk dads missing dance recitals before you decide to blow a goat on the internet for fifty bucks.
And if that disappears, where does that leave me on a Friday night with my new high speed connection?
 
No ad hom please, thanks.

Claire, I am not directly concerned by these questions, but when I remember some remarks I overheard back then at the pub, I can well imagine that the things you hear are often appalling by any standards.

Yet, as far as I can see, this place is rather sympathetic to non-cis people. The mods do what they can to keep disrespectful contributors at bay in order to keep the place tidy.

Almost all people who take part in the discussions behave properly, the rules are set, and the members who don't comply are rapidly eliminated. Therefore, those who remain tend to behave. Are you sure this is the place to condemn all cis people as an entity, thus reproducing the very behaviour you are suffering of ?
 
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