The FlatEarther
pfm Member
Hi all. I’m thinking of having Witch hat service my aging olive Supercap. Have any of you done this and can let me know what you think?
Thanks.
Steve
Thanks.
Steve
Witch hat Supercap Service advice
- Thread starter The FlatEarther
- Start date
The FlatEarther
pfm Member
What no one?
Lee T
pfm Member
They serviced my naim gear last year
A cd3.5 & nait 3
I preferred the sound prior to the service, others may disagree.
I felt the Naim sound had bee taken away, lacked involvement for some reason, others may prefer it this way.
I personally couldn't live with it so moved them on to pastures new.
A cd3.5 & nait 3
I preferred the sound prior to the service, others may disagree.
I felt the Naim sound had bee taken away, lacked involvement for some reason, others may prefer it this way.
I personally couldn't live with it so moved them on to pastures new.
The FlatEarther
pfm Member
Thanks Ragaman, that’s good to know.
Peter Stockwell
Back for more ...
I had a 72 serviced, bnc's changed to phonos, no complaints. But I have moved on, too.
Lee T
pfm Member
It could be I enjoy the added years of use in the sound, maybe they were designed initially to sound the way I heard them after service, it's all personal.
I have read some find SQ has improved no end after service, I suppose there is only one way to find out.
If I ever had another service, due to having to, then a recap would be it, nothing else touched.
I have read some find SQ has improved no end after service, I suppose there is only one way to find out.
If I ever had another service, due to having to, then a recap would be it, nothing else touched.
Given that I don't really believe that routine servicing: AKA parts swapping,
represents much in the way of value for money, I've taken the decision to
perform upgrades only with very few exceptions.
To the best of my experience, simply replacing one bit for another in a
working piece of kit simply returns the sound to where it is now after a
couple of week's burn-in with of course, the advantage of a longer service
life.
Many's the enquiry I've had for servicing Naim pre-amps but, after satisfying
myself that it's working as it should, offer the advice that, as there is no heat
within the case, the electrolytics will be fine for another round of duty. Tants
either stay alive, in which case they'll sound as good as the day they were made,
or expire with the attendant smoke and scorching.
As we read from earlier posts, the much vaunted servicing can result in an
underwhelming performance once returned to the system so it's not the
holy grail for those owners looking for a sparkling transformation for some
older gear.
As always, your mileage may vary.
represents much in the way of value for money, I've taken the decision to
perform upgrades only with very few exceptions.
To the best of my experience, simply replacing one bit for another in a
working piece of kit simply returns the sound to where it is now after a
couple of week's burn-in with of course, the advantage of a longer service
life.
Many's the enquiry I've had for servicing Naim pre-amps but, after satisfying
myself that it's working as it should, offer the advice that, as there is no heat
within the case, the electrolytics will be fine for another round of duty. Tants
either stay alive, in which case they'll sound as good as the day they were made,
or expire with the attendant smoke and scorching.
As we read from earlier posts, the much vaunted servicing can result in an
underwhelming performance once returned to the system so it's not the
holy grail for those owners looking for a sparkling transformation for some
older gear.
As always, your mileage may vary.
Fully agree with Les.
Naim 250s and 135s use a power supply board which uses some low value electrolytics which are well known to degrade over a period of 10 to 20 years, depending on usage (leave on 24/7 or turn off when not in use). This is where the myth of "servicing" Naim amplifiers every 10 years comes from.
Other non regulated NAPs don't suffer from the same problems, and I suspect that other equipment (pre amps etc ) will be fine for much longer than 10 or even 20 year intervals that are often suggested.
It's often reported that when people have their power amps serviced they say "it sounded like a new amplifier!". As someone said last year any competent service engineer would check, and correct if necessary, the bias current.
I bought a used NAP180 last year that sounded terrible. On checking the bias current it was WELL below recommended values and after re setting the bias current as per Les's instructions it sounded 100% better at zero cost!
Someone said to me that there were rumours that Naim "knobbled" their cheaper amplifiers to ensure that their more expensive models sounded sufficiently better to justify their higher price!
Can't imagine this being the case when Julian was still in charge!
Naim 250s and 135s use a power supply board which uses some low value electrolytics which are well known to degrade over a period of 10 to 20 years, depending on usage (leave on 24/7 or turn off when not in use). This is where the myth of "servicing" Naim amplifiers every 10 years comes from.
Other non regulated NAPs don't suffer from the same problems, and I suspect that other equipment (pre amps etc ) will be fine for much longer than 10 or even 20 year intervals that are often suggested.
It's often reported that when people have their power amps serviced they say "it sounded like a new amplifier!". As someone said last year any competent service engineer would check, and correct if necessary, the bias current.
I bought a used NAP180 last year that sounded terrible. On checking the bias current it was WELL below recommended values and after re setting the bias current as per Les's instructions it sounded 100% better at zero cost!
Someone said to me that there were rumours that Naim "knobbled" their cheaper amplifiers to ensure that their more expensive models sounded sufficiently better to justify their higher price!
Can't imagine this being the case when Julian was still in charge!
Mr Magoo
Hello. How are you?
I have a pair of 135s that I purchased unservices since the day they left Salisbury over 22 years ago. So what you’re telling me is that when I’ve had these amps serviced, they will show little if any improvement in performance once bedded in. I have a service booked for next week at Class A as it happens.
Since 135s use the regulator boards that cause problems with age (on my 250 it was buzzing from both speakers) at 22 years old yours are probably due a service by now. They will probably sound better after a service.
For the unregulated amplifiers, preamps etc I'd say if it isn't broken don't fix it!
For the unregulated amplifiers, preamps etc I'd say if it isn't broken don't fix it!
Nic Robinson
Moderator
I would be surprised if they immediately sounded better, but once bedded in they should sound just as good. Plus you know the amp will be 100% in spec for many years to come. I think one or two posts above are slightly unfair as they imply the amp is worse than before. The worst you can expect is it will sound factory fresh...which might be different and less enjoyable to an individual. My Witch Hat serviced 110 was superb. It was also very easy to sell when the time came as it was fully serviced.
Please read my post again and note that in the main, it relates to pre-amplifiers and in some part, power supplies.
Regarding the 250/135 series, there are certain stabilising capacitors on the regulator board which appear, by design, to be underrated.
As the 10uF axial caps 'go off', the regulator becomes unstable and the characteristic buzz begins. An uprated cap costs buttons and is virtually all
that's needed to rectify this problem. Main capacitors will probably benefit from being changed although, having said, there's a NAP110 on my bench
with caps dated 1983 and still going strong.
I often read of the concerns of owners when asking for service advice where they express doubts as to whether their amps will sound the same.
Well, they won't after having some new components fitted and that's a fact. The original bits and pieces, along with the firms that made them, are
long extinct and newer technologies have overtaken the old so the old chestnut about fitting 'genuine' components is a non-starter as genuine bits
just aren't on the menu. You may like the 'new' sound or you may not - as we've read.
The crux of my post was to state that some of this 'servicing' myth is generated by the factory and much of it by the fan base. It makes little sense
to my wallet to take a NAC62 for instance and spend the best part of its intrinsic value on having an expensive service only to benefit the next owner.
In any event, I have never seen assurances from any of the Naim organisation promotional material promising an 'improved' sound brought
about by servicing - only by paying more for an 'upgrade' such as the DR mod.
Naim servicing, whether it be carried out at the factory or by agents is simply a process of bits swapping along with a spot of recalibrating.
The NAP135s in the quote will have main and auxiliary caps changed and the regulator trips set according to factory specifications using
possibly the crudest method (as they have no proper electronic load), I've ever come across.
BTW: Regarding the NAP regulator instability - my HCR design moves the dominant pole stabilising element to a different location so won't
have this perennial problem in years to come - just a spot of intelligent thinking at work.
Lee T
pfm Member
They will revert back to factory fresh from Darran at Class A, straight forward service, like for like.
After listening for a good 12 years out of service, you will notice a difference, believe me, if you enjoy the difference is another matter. The mind can play tricks when trying to remember what the original sound was, your about to find out
I get the feeling you may be a happy bunny.He serviced my Rega Brio, quick turnaround & a decent price too, great communication from this guy, the sound did improve, sounded refreshed & livelier, put the spring back in it's step.
MJS
Technical Tinkerer
When I started the servicing business I wanted to provide a better-than-factory level of work. Having worked at the factory and seen what we charged I knew I could do a better job with a quicker turnaround. I appreciate that not all the components need doing at the same time but if you're going to take the amp apart and people are paying you for the privilege then I should do as good a job as I can. So we replace ALL the components that deteriorate over time, effectively bringing it up to as-new condition. We use uprated parts wherever possible to extend the service life of the work we do, and we will always undo or redo any work that hasn't been to our customer's satisfaction. Our aim is always to preserve the Naim sound. After all, half of us worked there and we know important it is to people.
Mr Magoo
Hello. How are you?
Servicing my Naim amps? What I am hoping for is a performance broadly similar to the original factory fresh performance provided by my 135s some 20+ years ago. The improvement I refer to is against the present performance levels of these amps. Interestingly, as I only recently acquired these amps unserviced, then I haven’t actually ever heard what they are capable of.
Les. The first two paras of your post made broad statements suggesting that simply replacing components on a like for like basis simply has no benefit. You do go on to give an example that happens to be a pre amp, but your post as a whole seems misleading as it clearly implies that no Naim amp is worth servicing (to me anyway). The OP was asking about a Supercap which is clearly not a pre amp.
Les. The first two paras of your post made broad statements suggesting that simply replacing components on a like for like basis simply has no benefit. You do go on to give an example that happens to be a pre amp, but your post as a whole seems misleading as it clearly implies that no Naim amp is worth servicing (to me anyway). The OP was asking about a Supercap which is clearly not a pre amp.