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Which one is most accurate digital or vinyl?

I don't know what you mean by 'genuine 20 bit converters'

Paul. I mean an A/D that translates the music signal every 5.175 microseconds directly into a single value out of 1048576 values possible (which I believe is a correct description of 20/192 PCM).



DSD is equivalent to 1 bit PCM at 1.4MHz with a bunch of DSP to trade bandwidth for resolution. It's transformable into and out of 20 bit PCM with no loss of information. 'Pure' is a marketing ism.

Paul

I disagree. I believe the transform to often be less than 100% transparent.
 
There is a straightforward explanation for the differences between CD and LP. No need to invent new ones and no magic.

People are prepared to queue outside record shops at 6-30am for one but can't even be arsed to go to a charity shop at five for £5 for the other, maybe?
 
Just ordered the double LP of Leftism... Long time since I listened to that on CD.

Today I wandered into my local HMV thinking I might give St Vincent another try and was amazed by the quantity of decent (180gm) vinyl there. So I walked out with two Boards of Canada LPs (Music has the Right to Children, and Tomorrow's Harvest). I did that usual equation in my head about the convenience of CD (rip to iTunes, probably better ultimate bass extension, etc) versus vinyl, but I'm glad I made the right choice. The vinyl sounds incredible.
 
Interesting explanation, I've never heard that before.

It isn't exactly a secret. And it nicely explains a thing or two.

I'm not sure about the problem being amps can't cope with the full dynamic range of CD, how much music is 136db loud? That is ear drum bursting level, and not the kind of music I listen to.

Frank's idea was quite correct, even though the figures perhaps were not. The background noise in his room may well be 40dB, but it is incorrect to align the noise floor of a replay channel with this. The noise spectrum in the room will typically be down-tilted with frequency, so in the mid-range one ends up with less than 40dB. Let's take 20dB, for the sake of argument. If we align CD's -93dB with this noise level, then CD's peaks will be at 113dB. That is quite loud, and quite out of many systems' capabilities.

As an aside, last week I faced a 40+ brass band from 10 meters or so. When they went tutti I am bloody sure they exceeded 113dB. By far.



Timing issues are also critical. Sampling theory says...

However, this misses a fundamental point, that music is not a continuous sinewave at a certain frequency

This is not claimed nor implied.

When sampling at 44.1khz (for example) the sampling interval is 22uS. A transient - eg a drum thwack - occurring during that 22uS gap will not be sampled,

The above notion is totally wrong. The temporal accuracy of even the worst implementation of 44.1k/16b is in the nanosecond region. This may come as a surprise, it is indeed counter-intuitive. But it is true. Very very true.
 
Dynamic range and distortion levels are not the only measures of fidelity. Timing issues are also critical. Sampling theory says that the original waveform can be reproduced perfectly provided the original recording is bandwidth limited to half the sampling frequency. That's fine, most people respond, because we can't hear anything above 20khz anyway.

However, this misses a fundamental point, that music is not a continuous sinewave at a certain frequency, but a series of transient impulses followed by decay. When sampling at 44.1khz (for example) the sampling interval is 22uS. A transient - eg a drum thwack - occurring during that 22uS gap will not be sampled, although its decay will be. The leading edge of most notes - a plucked string, the sound of a piano key hitting the string - will statistically be likely to occur within the 22uS gap, not at the exact point of sampling. This means that a large amount of important information - regardless of the sampling frequency - is never recorded. It also means that digital recordings - particularly early ones which were originally recorded with 44.1 khz ADCs - do not sound quite natural, and have lost important musical information during the recording process which can never be recovered.

Analogue recordings and playback are of course far worse than digital in most parameters, but they do seem to be able to reproduce transient information in a more natural way. Someone once defined music as "the organisation of time" and if vinyl reproduces the timing of musical information more accurately, and more completely, in my opinion this is why it sounds more "real" than digital.

Great post!
 
Music has the right to children is such a great record
Once its playing I really don't care where it comes from
Its perfect in almost every way
BoC's ascendant work, like "A beautiful house in the country"
I was not as sure about "Geogaddi" at first
as warp as a whole was undergoing deep change
A Clattery rattly atonal stage
But it heartens me
When people speak about music
Instead of the folk that post opinions propped up
with
misunderstood
graphs

Long may it continue
Thread crap all this implacable dullness with music
Have you noticed the music hides
When all around is technical analysis?
 
I particularly like this:-

"But if you're a turntable dealer, you also shouldn't go around telling your customers how much purer your audio is. First off, that's generally dickish behavior, but more to the point it's false. Digital recording just is more accurate. That's not the only thing worth considering by any means, but it does make the puritanism of some turntable dealers look rather ridiculous."

Peter
 
A lot of domestic hi fis are not capable of doing justice to CD due to not enough amp power or linear enough speakers.
A lot of the complaints about CD sound is due to amps clipping IMHO.

Do you think that this is what poster Kristopher refers to as listening fatigue, elsewhere in this thread?

You say, that for good Cd playback, we need amps that can deliver 1000w of power (I think this was Music Fidelity's argument for their new amps a few years ago). Then, adopting a naive perspective, the CD reveals the flaws in our systems and so this alone is an argument for vinyl. And if the solution to the problem people perceive with CDs, is to buy very powerful (and expensive) 1000w amps, are CDs worth it?

Why not nobble CD sound at mastering stage so that they have the same compromised sound that vinyl has and that listeners seem to prefer on their compromised playback systems?
 
Why not nobble CD sound at mastering stage so that they have the same compromised sound that vinyl has and that listeners seem to prefer on their compromised playback systems?

No, I don't think so.

CD and indeed the reply equipment just isn't as forgiving of poor engineering and mastering, so the buck again lies with the studio to ensure the formats potential with recording quality maximised.

Interestingly - at least implied from the link given above, was just how good the Nakimichi recorder was by comparison. Though CD won the final vote, it was genre sensitive, and I'm sure there were some tape preferences. We know this from demoing tape to customers ourselves, so maybe there could be a preferred filter or other for a more involving analogue-style playback.

Peter
 
theres no such thing as stereo bass.

the wavelengths in operation and the human ears inability to distinguish direction information from low frequencies make it thus.

this is not the same however as saying there is no stereo position information in a bass guitar.

The spectrum of a bass guitar is quite extended and most of the timbre,direction and timing information is in the upper frequencies.

this is why improving the tweeter in a loudspeaker is the best way to get better bass.
 
theres no such thing as stereo bass.

the wavelengths in operation and the human ears inability to distinguish direction information from low frequencies make it thus.

Too general.

A double bass has a pure tone frequency range of c. 40 to c. 250Hz; most of that range (down to c. 80Hz) can be located directionally by the human ear.

Accordingly, my (digital) system places the double basses where they should be: towards the right of the orchestra. The SME 20/3 I heard last week (using same amp and speakers as my home system) put the double basses somewhere vaguely in the middle of the stage.
 


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