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Which brand of Capacitors do Naim use?

I don't use Naim gear but in case of wider interest, one more time here is why suggesting reservoir cap service at 7years is not out of order, if a piece of equipment is recommended to be left permanently powered-up (as certainly used to be the case for Naim):

mc said:
Until comparatively recently, capacitors -especially in large sizes - were generally rated for a few (2-3) thousand hours at 85degree service. Most major manufacturers usually rate lifetime of electrolytic caps as the point at which ESR doubles - partly because this massively increases losses and so the performance slides off the page soon after.

Reservoir caps run warm inside due to the high ripple currents they endure, and consequent I^2 *ESR losses (Joule heating). Electrolytic cap life essentially halves for every 10degreeC rise in internal temp, pretty much after Arrhenius' Equation.

Anyway, say a given electrolytic reservoir cap is rated for 3000hrs life at 85degC. This is a common value - do check the datasheet for this info- it's normal-to-good performance BTW although it looks horrific since 3000hrs ~ only 5months. Let's look at that: say the cap runs at 45degC - about as hot as you can comfortably touch indefinitely - when inside a piece of running equipment; but it is the capacitor's internal temperature that matters, which will be above that of the case.

Then our example's rated performance should last about 2^[85-45) / 10] or 2^4 = 16 x the rated life. That's 16x3000hrs or say 6 years. You might similarly calculate a 105degC, 3000-hr rated part to last over 20yrs; but the truth is the terminal seals will likely fail first. Useful life - moot; check them after a decade

Either way still gives an first expectation of life of around 6 -10yrs continuously powered. It doesnt say more won't happen, just backs up recommendation to review (service)

Hence why a handful of conscientious manufacturers bother to recommend service between 7-10yrs. It's based on good physics, not revenue
One can argue the balance of that last line has changed for Naim since I first wrote this on pfm a decade ago, but the basic physic remains. My own amps have some quite expensive Elna PEH200 caps in, but given they are rated over 60,000hours at rated temp and run cool in an oversized case, they might give me another, oh, 40years or so...
 
Kendeil 22000uF make a big difference to HC's but curiously very little to SC's or power amps.

Not in my system did they make little difference - I've replaced them in both SC and power amp, but the 250 was the bigger improvement, mainly in transparency. I even went back to the original SLCE's (much to the mocking of one prominent objectivist trade poster on this forum), just to check I wasn't imagining things - nope a substantial gain in low level musical information and improved timing with the Kendeils.

And thanks to credible advice also on PFM I now switch my Hi-Fi off at night (sod Naim's advice), and hopefully will lengthen the life of electrolytic caps. At most my system takes 15 minutes to warm up and come on song.

Although I love my 250, I find it shocking how much Naim charge for servicing, given that the caps on the regulator board go tits up after a year.

mat
 
Not in my system did they make little difference - I've replaced them in both SC and power amp, but the 250 was the bigger improvement, mainly in transparency. I even went back to the original SLCE's (much to the mocking of one prominent objectivist trade poster on this forum), just to check I wasn't imagining things - nope a substantial gain in low level musical information and improved timing with the Kendeils.

Hi Mat,

did you go back to your used SLCE caps or did you try fresh ones. In my opinion, It would only my sense to compare fresh Kendeils with fresh Felsics.

My 10 years old Felsics did sound too lean on the lower midband to me - will try again with a fresh set to hear if they are any different.

ATB KH
 
Do they really? Mine never did.

In my system with my ears there is a definite degradation in sound after a year, slightly less tuneful, slight loss of transparency and more opaqueness. I noticed it playing a record one day and the sound didn't improve over a couple of weeks - so I replaced the reg board caps and normality was resumed.

Given all the variables your mileage may be better.

mat
 
Hi Mat,

did you go back to your used SLCE caps or did you try fresh ones. In my opinion, It would only my sense to compare fresh Kendeils with fresh Felsics.

My 10 years old Felsics did sound too lean on the lower midband to me - will try again with a fresh set to hear if they are any different.

ATB KH

They were the old ones, but only 5 or 6 years old from a previous Naim service - well within their good operating life I would have thought.

mat
 
I don't use Naim gear but in case of wider interest, one more time here is why suggesting reservoir cap service at 7years is not out of order, if a piece of equipment is recommended to be left permanently powered-up (as certainly used to be the case for Naim):


One can argue the balance of that last line has changed for Naim since I first wrote this on pfm a decade ago, but the basic physic remains. My own amps have some quite expensive Elna PEH200 caps in, but given they are rated over 60,000hours at rated temp and run cool in an oversized case, they might give me another, oh, 40years or so...

The big IF in that is If you leave the kit on 24/7. I stopped doing that a few years ago when electricity bills went up and have to say that 10 minutes warm up is plenty.

I'm therefore assuming my next 135 service won't be required until long after I'm dead!

There was a fella regularly selling old SLCE and various other brands of cap he'd removed from Naim equipment he'd serviced on Ebay, usually connected to a DMM showing ESR values exactly on manufacturer's original spec.

Some of it was very old, eg red SLCE caps and LMT caps.
 
There was a fella regularly selling old SLCE and various other brands of cap he'd removed from Naim equipment he'd serviced on Ebay, usually connected to a DMM showing ESR values exactly on manufacturer's original spec.

Some of it was very old, eg red SLCE caps and LMT caps.

Why do you think a simple ESR measurement with a DMM would tell you how the cap sounds?? Even new ones with the same ESR sound different. And ESR varies with frequency, applied voltage, and temperature.........
 
They won't tell me how it sounds, but they will indicate the extent to which it's reached the end of it's theoretical working life.

If the ESR is significantly above the original value at manufacturing then the cap is shagged out. If it isn't it's still working OK. Working OK and sounding OK may be different of course and different brands of cap certainly do sound different.

The issue is that people are being led to believe that equipment needs servicing far more regularly than it actually does in many cases.

In addition the equipment may actually sound better (or possibly worse) after servicing since the new cap is invariably not the same as the one removed.
 
A lot of the benefit of servicing pre amps I think derives from the replacement of poor quality components with better quality ones. I know people rave on about maroons but they aren't that good to my ear, and those gold ROE and SLCE caps that went into the olive wide box pre's are truly questionable. The ROE's sound veiled and the treble from the SLCE's is very harsh.
QUOTE]

I have Gold ROEs in my NAC82. What would you recommend as a replacement?
I read somewhere that you have a modified 82 that would Show a 52 a clean pair of heels- what did you do to achieve this?
 
Various schools of thought on that depending on personal taste.

My 82 has Elna Silmic II's for decoupling and Evox Rifa MMK's for feedback. It used to have the Silmics for everything which also works very well.

MMK's are no longer available but plenty of alternative large valued film caps exist.

More conventional schools of thought are to use Panasonic (formerly Sanyo) Oscon SP's for decoupling, and they used to have a fairly limited range so the one chosen was 56uF 25V and the Silmic II's 47uF 50V for feedback.

This doesn't suit those of us who like to run our preamp circuits at 28V, which I why I don't use the Oscons. In practice I don't hear much difference between a well run in Silmic II and an Oscon but Silmic II's have about a 3 month run in period and Oscons give instant results.

A newer school of thought is to replace everything with the Nichicon Muse KZ series but I can't say I've ever tried those.

From the description your 82 is probably early 90's so may well benefit from having its pots replaced too. Volume is easy to get, but balance needs a modification since you can no longer get the original 10KRD pot.

Electrically the 82 is identical to the 52 other than it doesn't have a separate supply for the internal phono cards (so take them outside if you need them) and doesn't have loads of options for multiple powered input and output boards.

Hence if you put a better PSU on an 82 in its minimalist format than a Supercap it will sound beter than a 52 in similarly minimalist format.

I also find deflex polipods under my 82's feet help it considerably.
 
Thanks for the comprehensive reply.

I decided to take a punt on the Polipod feet - 15 quid for 8, i can't really go wrong!

I have a POTS4 board in mine, so as you say quite old. Having a look at Oscons at the Moment - SP seems not to be available anymore. Do you know what the modern replacement is? SEPF?
 
Various schools of thought on that depending on personal taste.

My 82 has Elna Silmic II's for decoupling and Evox Rifa MMK's for feedback. It used to have the Silmics for everything which also works very well.

MMK's are no longer available but plenty of alternative large valued film caps exist.

More conventional schools of thought are to use Panasonic (formerly Sanyo) Oscon SP's for decoupling, and they used to have a fairly limited range so the one chosen was 56uF 25V and the Silmic II's 47uF 50V for feedback.

This doesn't suit those of us who like to run our preamp circuits at 28V, which I why I don't use the Oscons. In practice I don't hear much difference between a well run in Silmic II and an Oscon but Silmic II's have about a 3 month run in period and Oscons give instant results.

A newer school of thought is to replace everything with the Nichicon Muse KZ series but I can't say I've ever tried those.

From the description your 82 is probably early 90's so may well benefit from having its pots replaced too. Volume is easy to get, but balance needs a modification since you can no longer get the original 10KRD pot.

Electrically the 82 is identical to the 52 other than it doesn't have a separate supply for the internal phono cards (so take them outside if you need them) and doesn't have loads of options for multiple powered input and output boards.

Hence if you put a better PSU on an 82 in its minimalist format than a Supercap it will sound beter than a 52 in similarly minimalist format.

I also find deflex polipods under my 82's feet help it considerably.
Explain more on how the polipods helped
 
Polipods are just super squidgy sorbothane feet and absorb vibration.

The effect of them on the sound is to reduce a slightly rough edge which is caused by microphony ie the preamp components moving and hence small unwanted currents being generated by induction.

My preamp is unfortunately sited next to a bass driver so not the best physical arrangement of equipment possibly, but the effect was also there with my previous speakers which didn't have that issue.

My first set came to me many years ago as part of a complete system I acquired through an estate sale and I don't know what their original user did with them but I found they made quite a marked improvement under my 82. I always wanted some more but it was only recently that they reappeared on the market and until then I had absolutely no idea what they were.
 
Thanks for the comprehensive reply.

I decided to take a punt on the Polipod feet - 15 quid for 8, i can't really go wrong!

I have a POTS4 board in mine, so as you say quite old. Having a look at Oscons at the Moment - SP seems not to be available anymore. Do you know what the modern replacement is? SEPF?

SP series seems to have been deleted.

SFP seems closest match but the leakage current is a lot higher and in fact that was also deleted in 2013 though still widely available,

SFPX has higher ESR (bad) lower leakage (better) but considerably lower ripple rejection than SP or SFP (not good).

Neither is an exact replacement for the original SP and since it isn't the same thing it may sound different.

There seem to be a couple of polish suppliers of the original SP series on ebay but they seem a bit too good at having lots of things usually made of solid unobtanium so possibly fake.

Best to go with something else I suggest.
 
The Naim cards rattle about on their mounts, sparks fly and distortion abounds. Solder your cards into s 72 and it sounds better.
 
SP series seems to have been deleted.

SFP seems closest match but the leakage current is a lot higher and in fact that was also deleted in 2013 though still widely available,

SFPX has higher ESR (bad) lower leakage (better) but considerably lower ripple rejection than SP or SFP (not good).

Neither is an exact replacement for the original SP and since it isn't the same thing it may sound different.

There seem to be a couple of polish suppliers of the original SP series on ebay but they seem a bit too good at having lots of things usually made of solid unobtanium so possibly fake.

Best to go with something else I suggest.

Elna Silmic IIs seem to be widely available on ebay. Might give them a shot
 
The Naim cards rattle about on their mounts, sparks fly and distortion abounds. Solder your cards into s 72 and it sounds better.

Don't solder them in!!! That's a stupid suggestion. Maybe it's needed if you start shaking the preamp upside down, but that doesn't really happen in my household. Doesn't make it "sound better" either, even if you use ****y branded solder. And how will you service or repair it when it's all soldered in place?

Spend a bit of time cleaning the contacts and gently poking the spring contacts to make them a bit grippier (like when new) and it will be just fine.
 


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