What does it mean to you to be English?

[Dogberry]

Do they have a Freedom day in England?
They've got one in Portugal.
Maybe because your all subjects.

 

[ks.234]

Bloody right!
This is not to say that it was perfect. However as I said earlier it dragged us out of the feudal agrarian tradition and into the beginnings of the modern world.
You can dwell on the negatives of the IR if you wish, to do so is akin as to dwell on the death and destruction of 2 World Wars rather than to acknowledge that they were both (the second especially) pivotal in the making of the modern Europe, a 70 year peace within, and possibly the making of the world as a whole.

Of course the History of anything has to be seen in context, but taking pride in past events requires stripping out those things that are nothing to be proud of. Trying to reveal the whole picture is the purpose of historical study

Studying anything and not including the negatives is not good History, it is selective.

Apart from anything else what dragged us out of Feudalism started a long time before the Industrial Revolution. The context of the Black Death was significant in the demise of feudalism and the invention of the Joint Stock Company in the 16th C was an important precursor to the IR in the 18th. The IR was part of a process that includes slavery, colonialism and exploitation as well as the ingenuity and enterprise of inventors and entrepreneurs

 

[SteveG]

I connect myself with England and less with GB. My attitude is if the Scots and Welsh want independence, have the decency to allow them a referendum and if they clock up a 51% vote, give it to them on the strict understanding that they are now as foreign to us as the French. It's wrong for them to be part of us because one of our Kings kicked the daylights out of them a few centuries ago. It's their country, let them decide.

I thought it was more that England went begging to Scotland for a King when they didn't have one themselves in 1603.

I'm half English and half Scottish and have lived in both countries so not really sure what I think. There are far fewer scumbag racist/facist Tories in Scotland though, which is one big thing in its favour.

 

[ks.234]

History is chock a block with negatives and positives.

Obviously

You build on the positives.

If history is both about the moral positives and negatives, both need to be included. To exclude one is not history, it’s something very different. History is inclusive, not exclusive

I don't expect the German people to bleet on with endless guilt about their history in the 20thC like some here do about English history.

Doh! I nearly mentioned the war.

The Germans do express their guilt about their recent history, it is having an impact on their attitude to Israel today.

No one is talking about feeling guilt about our English past, but to pretend some things didn't happen in order to bolster a sense of pride has dangerous potentials as we have seen just recently

 

[ks.234]

I thought it was more that England went begging to Scotland for a King when they didn't have one themselves in 1603.

I'm half English and half Scottish and have lived in both countries so not really sure what I think. There are far fewer scumbag racist/facist Tories in Scotland though, which is one big thing in its favour.

Then went begging for a different one from The Dutch a few years later.

Then to Germany…..

 

[Mick P]

I thought it was more that England went begging to Scotland for a King when they didn't have one themselves in 1603.

I'm half English and half Scottish and have lived in both countries so not really sure what I think. There are far fewer scumbag racist/facist Tories in Scotland though, which is one big thing in its favour.

err Jacobites !, Bonnie Prince Charlie and all that.

The SNP may recover their position and eventually push for it again. I have spent less than 24 hours in Scotland so I am not over familiar with it. However I used to deal with Scottish and Southern Energy in Perth and they did resent being bossed about by the English management whom they considered to be more interested in the interest of England rather than Scotland and felt that they would be better off going independent.

 

[Minio]

to pretend some things didn't happen in order to bolster a sense of pride has dangerous potentials as we have seen just recently

Like my walk around Croydon yesterday (I might have mentioned ) it did dawn on me that riots occurred there 13 years ago and it was certainly a sad reflection on the racial tensions and inequality.

But it is a resilience in the community that surely must include some pride within, to move on from such painful occurrences.

Colonialism, slavery etc are well known from the past and have no place in our future.

 

[ks.234]

Like my walk around Croydon yesterday (I might have mentioned ) it did dawn on me that riots occurred there 13 years ago and it was certainly a sad reflection on the racial tensions and inequality.

But it is a resilience in the community that surely must include some pride within, to move on from such painful occurrences.

Pride in the people around you is fine. Especially if they have built something from the ashes of racial tensions 13 years ago

Colonialism, slavery etc are well known from the past and have no place in our future.

Of course they do. It’s as daft to deny history from centuries ago as it is to deny that of 13 years ago. If a community has built something of the ashes of past racial tensions, saying that history has no place in the present is strange. It speaks more to exclusivity than it does to inclusivity

 

[Beobloke]

I'm definitely not ashamed to be English but I am ashamed by the actions of the noisy, racist, simpleton minority who think they are defining "Englishness" on my behalf, which they most certainly are not. I've also got used to the fact that most foreign countries seem to hate us. In fact, the USA, Australia and Singapore are the only countries I've been to where I've got the impression that they actually like us!

Also, as an engineer, I can't help feeling I was born 50 years too late. We used to be one of the world leaders in engineering and technology but now I sometimes feel that all we lead the world in is football hooliganism and drinking to excess.

 

[stevec67]

Of course the History of anything has to be seen in context,

Yes

but taking pride in past events requires stripping out those things that are nothing to be proud of.

No it doesn't. One can take an holistic view. That's what I'm doing

Trying to reveal the whole picture is the purpose of historical study

Of course

Studying anything and not including the negatives is not good History, it is selective.

Obviously, and nobody is suggesting this

Apart from anything else what dragged us out of Feudalism started a long time before the Industrial Revolution. The context of the Black Death was significant in the demise of feudalism and the invention of the Joint Stock Company in the 16th C was an important precursor to the IR in the 18th.

The IR came out of history. As i said earlier it stands on history as we do today

The IR was part of a process that includes slavery, colonialism and exploitation as well as the ingenuity and enterprise of inventors and entrepreneurs

The IR was part of what was going on at the time. That slavery etc was also in place is independent of this. Slavery was around long before the IR.

 

[Cheese]

I'm not sure how much of the above is Merle Haggard, and how much is Cheese.

Quoting his line 'if you don't love it, leave it'. You will agree that my stance is somewhat softer.

Merle Haggard was a Republican and the above is a very right-wing view.

This is why I wrote that I agreed to some extent.

Most Merle Haggard's songs have past their sell-by date long ago, but a few lines can still be picked here and there. In musical terms I very much like his reduced-to-the-max orchestrations. Great voice too.

Republican: have a search for Cheese Trump and you will read what I think of him. But I do believe that doing nothing but swearing about the situation, and throwing rocks into the windows of someone else's house, is not a Republican thing to do. Neither is it a Democrat thing to do.

 

[mercalia]

To speak one of the various English accents

 

[gez]

Of itself, is this a bad thing? I had, a glass of wine with dinner, etc. In France and Italy everyone does. But they have fewer problems with drunkenness than the UK.

Well doctors will tell you it is. The guidance is that children under the age of 15 should abstain completely from alcohol as it can impact both physical and mental development.

 

[gez]

I'm definitely not ashamed to be English but I am ashamed by the actions of the noisy, racist, simpleton minority who think they are defining "Englishness" on my behalf, which they most certainly are not. I've also got used to the fact that most foreign countries seem to hate us. In fact, the USA, Australia and Singapore are the only countries I've been to where I've got the impression that they actually like us!

Also, as an engineer, I can't help feeling I was born 50 years too late. We used to be one of the world leaders in engineering and technology but now I sometimes feel that all we lead the world in is football hooliganism and drinking to excess.

IME Brazilians generally have a positive view of the British too.

 

[stevec67]

Well doctors will tell you it is. The guidance is that children under the age of 15 should abstain completely from alcohol as it can impact both physical and mental development.

Better tell the French and Italians too then. I'm not suggesting that they should get drunk, however this needs to be viewed in the context of the fact that gut bacteria produce the alcohol present in 1/2 pint of beer every 24 hours, and it is easily metabolised via AcCoA/Krebs. So is the alcohol present in a small glass of wine. A small glass of wine once a month or week is not going to impact child development. If it were there would be population differences between France etc and RoW.

 

[gez]

One for the English teachers here: how Britains youth are adopting the language of UK rap.

Bait, ting, certi: how UK rap changed the language of the nation

Fuelled by music fandom and social media, young British people’s slang is evolving to include words with pidgin, patois and Arabic roots – even where strong regional English dialects exist

www.theguardian.com

Yes and the "youth" that talk like that will struggle to get themselves jobs in any major employer unless they learn to "speak proper". For sure you're never going to get offered a job as a Project Manager or Software Engineer etc in Microsoft, Google et al if you talk like Stormzy.

 

[gez]

Better tell the French and Italians too then. I'm not suggesting that they should get drunk, however this needs to be viewed in the context of the fact that gut bacteria produce the alcohol present in 1/2 pint of beer every 24 hours, and it is easily metabolised via AcCoA/Krebs. So is the alcohol present in a small glass of wine. A small glass of wine once a month or week is not going to impact child development. If it were there would be population differences between France etc and RoW.

Only relating what I've read. Who knows how politicized the UK message is, impossible to tell.

 

[Minio]

Pride in the people around you is fine. Especially if they have built something from the ashes of racial tensions 13 years ago

The pride thing seems a bit confused by semantics in this thread.
The word has different meaning in different contexts.

I don't walk around my living room saying that I am so proud to be English.

But if I was amongst French friends I equally would not be saying how I hate England.

It's all contextual.

I could say, for example, that I hate football hooliganism or I hate the government. But there is too much I like about England, including the inclusivity which I see much evidence of.

Even though there is exclusivity which I do not.

 

[ks.234]

The pride thing seems a bit confused by semantics in this thread.
The word has different meaning in different contexts.

I don't walk around my living room saying that I am so proud to be English.

But if I was amongst French friends I equally would not be saying how I hate England.

It's all contextual.

Of course. I’m just not sure why pride has to come in with it though. The opposite of being proud of your country is not necessarily hating it.

Other alternatives are available

I could say, for example, that I hate football hooliganism or I hate the government. But there is too much I like about England, including the inclusivity which I see much evidence of.

Given our history I would hope that we have seen moves to greater inclusivity.

However, exclusivity has been on the rise again for a few years now.

Even though there is exclusivity which I do not.

On that we agree.

 

[Yank]

English is the lingua franca.