What does it mean to you to be English?

[stevec67]

One for the English teachers here: how Britains youth are adopting the language of UK rap.

Bait, ting, certi: how UK rap changed the language of the nation

Fuelled by music fandom and social media, young British people’s slang is evolving to include words with pidgin, patois and Arabic roots – even where strong regional English dialects exist

www.theguardian.com

That's nothing new. Wasn't it happening in the 50s, with the Beat generation, in the 60s with American music coming over? I know it was happening in the 70s and 80s when I was a kid, I remember one adopted word, to describe something as really good, was "kiff". "That's absolutely f***ing kiff!" Kiff is from Arabic, IIRC, meaning excellent. This was rural E Midlands UK, not an inner city area, and we had never seen anyone speaking Arabic in our lives. Interestingly, French urban/youth patois uses "kif" to describe marijuana, which is again I think Arabic, and they have turned it into a French slang verb, "kiffer", to like very much or love. "Je kiffe pour ca!" means "I really like/love that!"

So youths are adopting foreign words that they hear in music? Big deal. Plus ca change, my friend.

 

[Finnegan]

Not in and of itself. I suspect that's not the kind of drinking that's going on, talking to my kids about it. I raised it because it was questioned yesterday - the truth is that there's a nasty drinking culture in this country that isn't just about having a social drink occasionally.

I remember travelling round Europe in my 20’s fruit picking. I remember squads of Brit lager heads on the piss. The French were utterly perplexed and could not understand why they would drink themselves to unconsciousness, falling over and literally pissing themselves. It was a total embarrassment. Likewise the behaviour of some Brits in Amsterdam. Most Europeans simply don’t have that heavy drinking, macho culture. Don’t get me wrong, yer average French or Greek person likes a drink, but they don’t start punching the living shit out each other when they’ve had a few.

I’m not sure what it is, but I suspect it’s being inculcated from an early age that Brittania ruled the waves and all that bullshit- when in fact we’re an increasingly
pathetic little second rate country trading on past glories (i.e. shameful episodes).

 

[stevec67]

Our industrial past is part of our history, it is something to be studied, but studying it from a starting point of pride is ahistorical.

I disagree. The Industrial Revolution brought the UK out of feudal times and in many cases effective slavery. The fact that the IR was in many cases not much better than the old agrarian roots doesn't deflect that. It was the start of our movement from the fields into the towns, and into a manufacturing based economy. A damp terraced house in Barnsley or Manchester and a life of coal mining or cotton milling may be bloody hard, but it's better than a mud hut

 

[Finnegan]

But its a shame that one is made to feel like a racist or a xenophobic to say that I feel English and not European.

Is that the case? I didn’t realise.

 

[Finnegan]

E.P. Thompson in what is one of the greatest works of Anglophone history The Making Of The English Ruling Class describes the process of how the Industrial Revolution robbed the English of their sense of community and indentity.

“The process of industrialization is necessarily painful. It must involve the erosion of traditional patterns of life. But it was carried through with exceptional violence in Britain. It was unrelieved by any sense of national participation in communal effort, such as is found in countries undergoing a national revolution. Its ideology was that of the masters alone… The experience of immiseration came upon them in a hundred different forms; for the field labourer, the loss of his common rights and the vestiges of village democracy; for the artisan, the loss of his craftsman’s status; for the weaver, the loss of livelihood and of independence; for the child, the loss of work and play in the home; for many groups of workers whose real earnings improved, the loss of security, leisure and the deterioration of the urban environment.”

 

[richardg]

I'm still not sure why, me, as English born, am denied a proud status. While other countries, go about it with gay aboundment.
From history, there are no countries, without a checkered past. So why pick on the English, and try to give them severve guilt for who they are are.

If we start to use history, as as a measure of uprightness, then we come out ok, considering what the Normans did to us

It's a fair point. I feel personally that there is a significant minority of people that seem to be a bit more vocal than the rest that I do not associate with at all. I'm thinking lager louts, football hooligans and keep them foreigners out types. The noise they make in England and abroad seems to outweigh the nice bits too much. The French and the Germans definitely notice that component of our culture and it is a bit awkward when it comes up.

 

[Mike Reed]

One for the English teachers here: how Britain's youth are adopting the language of UK rap.

Vocab. changes constantly; grammar rarely does. The first is simply the fuel but the second is the infrastructure to use it. I used to have the confusing, albeit distinctive title of both English teacher and teacher of English; lots of the first but fewer of the second. Funny how 'English' is both a nationality and a teaching subject.

Unless we make value judgements on past behaviour, how can we know not to repeat the behaviour?

As I found when ordering baked beans online, Heinz' site is a wonderful thing. !

 

[Mike Reed]

Brittania

That reminded me of in the early days of 34 years of shopping street surveys for Sir Bill Newman (Newman Books as was). I was pulled up by him on a visit to his house because I'd misspelt the Britannia Building Society on my retail corrections submissions. Some lessons remain forever , even if that building society hasn't.

 

[Mick P]

I connect myself with England and less with GB. My attitude is if the Scots and Welsh want independence, have the decency to allow them a referendum and if they clock up a 51% vote, give it to them on the strict understanding that they are now as foreign to us as the French. It's wrong for them to be part of us because one of our Kings kicked the daylights out of them a few centuries ago. It's their country, let them decide.

It's the same with the Commonwealth, let the members leave if they so wish. The days of the Empire are over.

England is generally a good place to live, we are the world's fifth largest economy and it's still relatively easy to earn a good living if you are prepared to work.

Living in Spain for a few months a year makes you compare the the two countries against each other.

Spain has cheap housing because they just build anywhere and have plenty of spare land. The houses out there are getting smaller than ours. Their taxation system hits you mainly when you sell shares, move house and die. We just have a gentler taxation on nearly everything except food. They pay VAT on food.

The health system here is comparable to theirs, our emergency system seems better but they have better after care. However everything is recorded on paper which slows things up a bit.

Their main roads are better than ours but their small roads are awful.

There is a distinct lack of choice in the shops compared to ours and the price of furniture and electronics is way cheaper here. Food is much better than ours, cheaper, fresher and more seasonal. One major downside in Spain is that everything is packed in plastic.

Our electricity prices are way cheaper than theirs and water can be unreliable but is getting better.

On the social side, the Brits moan a lot more whereas the Spanish are more tolerant. They think we drink too much and that we are lousy parents. They think we are far too bossy with our children bordering on cruelty. This is a really strong criticism of us.

They also think we are hard working and hence are rich. They also think we work too hard and don't get the best out of life. They regard us as robots in the sense that we will walk into a restaurant, eat the food and quickly walk out. They will spend hours just chatting at the table.

The Spanish who live in the major cities absolutely detest the "lazy" Spanish who live on the coast and in rural areas because they regard them as backward and are holding Spain back. They will happily buy second houses on the coast and only use them a few weeks a year and don't give a damn about locals struggling to buy houses. Madrid is absolutely beautiful with magnificent buildings much grander than Londons with brilliant restaurants that puts the coastal regions to shame. The Madrid people want the rural areas to up their game but it's never going to happen.

The Spanish are more tolerant of minorities such as Gays and Trans etc but really hate black farm workers with a vengeance. We are reasonably tolerant but still have a way to go.

Every country is different but overall I think the UK is OK, not perfect but OK.

 

[Minio]

That's nothing new. Wasn't it happening in the 50s, with the Beat generation, in the 60s with American music coming over?

How Adam Faith got through the beatnik script in Beat Girl, without falling over laughing, I will never know.

It's what makes the film for me though.

 

[Fatmarley]

But its a shame that one is made to feel like a racist or a xenophobic to say that I feel English and not European. I feel English and British and proud of both.

 

[ks.234]

I think it is wrong, not morally wrong, just plain a mistake, to try to pass moral judgements on centuries or millennia of a nation's history. There is no point. Everyone tried to further their own interests; Greeks, Romans, Habsburgs, the Popes, English kings, American presidents, Napoleon, Bismarck, Stalin, Hitler, etc.

If you don’t recognise the moral wrongs of past genocides, you won’t recognise them when and where that are happening in the present.

 

[RICHARD1111]

I think people will feel differently depending on where they live in England. I live in North Yorkshire and count myself very lucky to do so. I play cricket in some of the most beautiful locations. Drinking a few pints after with the opposition makes me feel very lucky to be English.

 

[ks.234]

I disagree. The Industrial Revolution brought the UK out of feudal times and in many cases effective slavery. The fact that the IR was in many cases not much better than the old agrarian roots doesn't deflect that. It was the start of our movement from the fields into the towns, and into a manufacturing based economy. A damp terraced house in Barnsley or Manchester and a life of coal mining or cotton milling may be bloody hard, but it's better than a mud hut

Not sure what you disagree about? That History should be studied or that History should not be studied to find pride?

The Industrial Revolution would not have happened, or at least wouldn’t have happened the way it did, without the investment of money gained from the fabulous profits of slavery and colonialism

 

[stevec67]

Not sure what you disagree about?

This bit:
"studying it from a starting point of pride is ahistorical."
Because it isn't. The IR made the UK into what it is now, and brought massive progress out of the fields and into the towns. We can be proud of this and still follow history.

That History should be studied or that History should not be studied to find pride?

Neither.

The Industrial Revolution would not have happened,

Yes it would

or at least wouldn’t have happened the way it did, without the investment of money gained from the fabulous profits of slavery and colonialism

This bit goes without saying, for good or ill we stand on the shoulders of the past. We wouldn't be where we are now without the Romans, we wouldn't be here now without the Vikings, we certainly wouldn't be where we are now without the Saxon Invasions, so on for 1066. For good or ill.
I remember that on Desert Island the Duke of Westminster, upon being asked how he managed his enormous wealth, had the grace to acknowledge that his ancestor being big mates and the hunting guide to William Of Normandy (Gros Veneur is Old French for "great hunter" and the origin of Grosvenor) was "a great starting advantage in life". I'll say.
So yes, the raw materials were coming in from the Colonies for very little money, the wealth from overseas financed the building of the factories, but that's the way it always would have been. The money existed and was going to be invested, so using capital to build the Means Of Production is Capitalism 1.01.

 

[ks.234]

This bit:
"studying it from a starting point of pride is ahistorical."
Because it isn't. The IR made the UK into what it is now, and brought massive progress out of the fields and into the towns. We can be proud of this and still follow history.

Neither.

Yes it would

This bit goes without saying, for good or ill we stand on the shoulders of the past. We wouldn't be where we are now without the Romans, we wouldn't be here now without the Vikings, we certainly wouldn't be where we are now without the Saxon Invasions, so on for 1066. For good or ill.
I remember that on Desert Island the Duke of Westminster, upon being asked how he managed his enormous wealth, had the grace to acknowledge that his ancestor being big mates and the hunting guide to William Of Normandy (Gros Veneur is Old French for "great hunter" and the origin of Grosvenor) was "a great starting advantage in life". I'll say.
So yes, the raw materials were coming in from the Colonies for very little money, the wealth from overseas financed the building of the factories, but that's the way it always would have been. The money existed and was going to be invested, so using capital to build the Means Of Production is Capitalism 1.01.

You believe we should take pride in the Industrial Revolution, slavery, colonialism and exploitation and all

 

[stevec67]

You believe we should take pride in the Industrial Revolution?

Bloody right!
This is not to say that it was perfect. However as I said earlier it dragged us out of the feudal agrarian tradition and into the beginnings of the modern world.
You can dwell on the negatives of the IR if you wish, to do so is akin as to dwell on the death and destruction of 2 World Wars rather than to acknowledge that they were both (the second especially) pivotal in the making of the modern Europe, a 70 year peace within, and possibly the making of the world as a whole.
Edit - this bit of your post is an edit added after my response:

slavery, colonialism and exploitation and all

No. Slavery etc predates the IR and was independent of it. The fact that the IR built upon pre existing slavery, colonialism etc is simply how history works.

 

[Mick P]

I think people will feel differently depending on where they live in England. I live in North Yorkshire and count myself very lucky to do so. I play cricket in some of the most beautiful locations. Drinking a few pints after with the opposition makes me feel very lucky to be English.

I once lived in Rochdale for 4 years and couldn't leave the place quick enough. It was always either cold or wet and quite often both. The winters were really cold and as a Devonian it was like being in a foreign country. When we went down to visit the relatives in sunny Wiltshire. we could feel the temperature slowly increasing the further south we got.

The nearer the Equator, the better for me.

 

[Minio]

You believe we should take pride in the Industrial Revolution, slavery, colonialism and exploitation and all

History is chock a block with negatives and positives.

You build on the positives.

I don't expect the German people to bleet on with endless guilt about their history in the 20thC like some here do about English history.

Doh! I nearly mentioned the war.

 

[Martyn Miles]

I have always considered myself English rather than British.
Born in the Home Counties.
‘Leafy England.’
I’ve never warmed to the term ‘Brit.’
When we’re called Brits on TV I feel my hackles rise.