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Welcome to the fascist state

Tony L said:
This and the mass unemployment that will inevitably come from Brexit. A lot of people will exit ‘furlough’ with next to nothing and a real risk of losing their homes etc. That may well lead to unrest given the government have so obviously both created this mess and stuffed their own faces at the trough to the tune of £bns at our expense in the process. This legislation pretty much enables them to set the police and military against the citizens in order to protect themselves. It is not far off from what we are seeing in Myanmar or when Trump tear-gassed protestors for a cheap photo opportunity.

I’m not saying it is ‘fascism’ yet, the title of the thread is not mine, but this is a very, very dangerous step on the path towards it. All decent thinking people should resist all erosions of our basic human rights and civil liberties. Many fought and died over hundreds of years to obtain them, we should not easily cave into state authoritarianism. This government needs to be scrutinised challenged at every single step. Their motives are clearly not good IMHO.
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You can certainly see why they'd want to tighten things up a little. Building genuine public support for a new right wing settlement would be very do-able with a bit of imagination and could easily see Labour off for a generation. But also, hard work, and they'd have to piss off quite a few backers (landlords in particular). So I think they're going to go with culture war and a bit of a bung for Tory marginals + gerrymandering and repression. Fun times ahead!

I'm very curious to see what happens once lockdown ends. I think both the government and Labour have been getting away with an awful lot that they might not have had people been able to meet in person and protest easily. The dominant political feeling at the moment seems to be disillusionment and despair, but maybe, bubbling away beneath it all...

The reaction to Sarah Everard's murder is encouraging.
 
slavedata said:
The Police Crimes and Sentencing & Courts Bill 2021 is proposing to clamp down hard on the right to protest and undermine democratic freedoms.

Finding flimsy foundations for prosecution is part of this. Under the terms of the proposed Act causing ‘serious annoyance’ to another person can be punishable by up to ten years in prison. Look at section 59 if you doubt me.

https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog...rison-in-the-uk-welcome-to-the-fascist-state/

FIRST THEY CAME
By Martin Niemöller

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out forme.
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My Wife's first thought when I read the top of this quote: "This is China right?"
 
Seanm said:
You can certainly see why they'd want to tighten things up a little. Building genuine public support for a new right wing settlement would be very do-able with a bit of imagination and could easily see Labour off for a generation. But also, hard work, and they'd have to piss off quite a few backers (landlords in particular). So I think they're going to go with culture war and a bit of a bung for Tory marginals + gerrymandering and repression. Fun times ahead!

I'm very curious to see what happens once lockdown ends. I think both the government and Labour have been getting away with an awful lot that they might not have had people been able to meet in person and protest easily. The dominant political feeling at the moment seems to be disillusionment and despair, but maybe, bubbling away beneath it all...

The reaction to Sarah Everard's murder is encouraging.
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As of now the body has not been identified.
 
Mike Reed said:
To protest peacefully, certainly, but another way is to lobby one's own m.p., collect signatures, whatever. There have been some very disruptive and totally unnecessary (and irrelevant?) street protests in recent years causing disruption and damage.
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The problem is it is just ignored as really we have neither democracy or accountability. Petitions are ignored, form-letters are composed by Conservative Central Office and bounced back out with a simple ctrl-c ctrl-v and the MP just gets back to ringing up expenses in their safe seat until they are shipped off to the HoL.

Enfield boy said:
Poll tax protests?
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I was there, and yes it made a difference. I don’t condone violence or property destruction, but bringing a corrupt or unaccountable state to a standstill is a perfectly legitimate action. I’ve been on the other side of it too, e.g. the Tube strikes in That London in the 1990s cost me some real money and inconvenience (I was an IT contractor paid by the hour).
 
I remember thinking, as I marched through Dublin on an anti-Trump March and the gardaí (police) were stopping all the traffic to let us pass, how little thought I gave this wonderful right. Even got a little emotional.

.sjb
 
Tony L said:
I was there, and yes it made a difference. I don’t condone violence or property destruction, but bringing a corrupt or unaccountable state to a standstill is a perfectly legitimate action. I’ve been on the other side of it too, e.g. the Tube strikes in
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I was at the poll tax riots too, sitting in a cafe with my two young children when a scaffolding pole came through the window. How does the right to protest balance with the right not to be showered with broken glass?
 
gavreid said:
An they're spying on our every move too in a huge fishing expedition:

"Two internet providers are tracking and collecting the websites visited by their customers as part of a secretive Home Office trial, designed to work out if a national bulk surveillance system would be useful for national security and law enforcement.

Details about the data collection experiment are limited, emerging via an obscure regulatory disclosure and a report in Wired, prompting campaigners to warn of a lack of transparency over data being “hoovered up into a surveillance net”. "

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rs-tracking-sites-we-visit-in-secretive-trial
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Sorry, don’t have time to research for myself right now, but do we know which ISPs?
 
richardkendell said:
I was at the poll tax riots too, sitting in a cafe with my two young children when a scaffolding pole came through the window. How does the right to protest balance with the right not to be showered with broken glass?
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I did say I don’t condone violence or property damage, of which that is both! FWIW I was up north, and I don’t recall any violence at the Liverpool or Manchester protests. A lot of people, a lot of anger at a terrible government, but I don’t recall feeling at risk at all.

PS For clarity: I also don’t condone state violence, e.g. Thatcher unleashing mounted police on striking miners etc. That was just as bad as Trump gassing a peaceful demonstration, or what is happening on the streets of Myanmar or Hong Kong in recent months.
 
Mike Reed said:
I s'pose there've been destructive or obstructive marches/conflagrations here which have elicited some kind of positive outcome but I can't put my finger on one at the mo'. Likewise for the U.S.A. but there, similarities to G.B. in culture and social stability are different in many aspects.
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Very few I think, either in the UK, Europe, The Middle East, Africa or the US. The problem is this: popular militant action tends to be diffuse in its demands and unclear in its leadership, and so once the people have let off steam it all fizzles out and things get back to how they were before.

Mainstream, parliamentary, politics is corrupt and powerful; grass roots action does not have a good track record of being effective and often deteriorates into terrible mindless violence. I don't know if there is a third way.
 
Dave***t said:
Sorry, don’t have time to research for myself right now, but do we know which ISPs?
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I've not found out, it might be wider than has got out so far since it's all being done in secret. It'll likely be two from BT, Virgin Media and Sky.
 
Tony L said:
I did say I don’t condone violence or property damage, of which that is both! FWIW I was up north, and I don’t recall any violence at the Liverpool or Manchester protests. A lot of people, a lot of anger at a terrible government, but I don’t recall feeling at risk at all.

PS For clarity: I also don’t condone state violence, e.g. Thatcher unleashing mounted police on striking miners etc. That was just as bad as Trump gassing a peaceful demonstration, or what is happening on the streets of Myanmar or Hong Kong in recent months.
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Then, as now, thugs will tag on either for a laugh, to undermine the message or be actually sent to sabotage the "movement." If government had listened to 2m protestors almost a generation ago we wouldn't have gone into a war that in any civilisation should have been decried as illegal by everyone. As others have experienced, a friend at the time, who was a serving police officer boasted about the money he made during the miners' strike. To his credit he did tell me (also at the time) that the footage on TV had been rearranged to make the miners appear the aggressors.
If Patel is able to get her curbs on peaceful protest through parliament our "Poundshop Churchill" will be only too happy to unleash the army on strikers (Tonypandy?) and send gunboats up the Mersey.
 
Enfield boy said:
Then, as now, thugs will tag on either for a laugh, to undermine the message or be actually sent to sabotage the "movement." If government had listened to 2m protestors almost a generation ago we wouldn't have gone into a war that in any civilisation should have been decried as illegal by everyone. As others have experienced, a friend at the time, who was a serving police officer boasted about the money he made during the miners' strike. To his credit he did tell me (also at the time) that the footage on TV had been rearranged to make the miners appear the aggressors.
If Patel is able to get her curbs on peaceful protest through parliament our "Poundshop Churchill" will be only too happy to unleash the army on strikers (Tonypandy?) and send gunboats up the Mersey.
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As you say they've always done what they like. When they're caught with their pants down they just wait long enough for the guilty to be dead before any serious inquiry is allowed to take place, or else simply leave it for the historians to unpick. It was even worse around the empire, where the 'Brits' had a reputation for severe brutality. It isn't fascism though - that's a whole lot worse, these b@stards can still be voted out...
 
richardkendell said:
I was at the poll tax riots too, sitting in a cafe with my two young children when a scaffolding pole came through the window. How does the right to protest balance with the right not to be showered with broken glass?
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Same as I have the right to drive a car but not put it through a bus stop outside a school, same as I have the right to own a knife at home but not take it on the streets and stab someone.
 
If marching to demonstrate against the treatment of women breaches the Covid rules then the Police are right to appose it and enforce the lockdown. However I would certainly be against Pritti vacant and her party curtailing the ability to protest peacefully.
 
gavreid said:
As you say they've always done what they like. When they're caught with their pants down they just wait long enough for the guilty to be dead before any serious inquiry is allowed to take place, or else simply leave it for the historians to unpick. It was even worse around the empire, where the 'Brits' had a reputation for severe brutality. It isn't fascism though - that's a whole lot worse, these b@stards can still be voted out...
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If only.... Only a gov which can be trusted by the cabal of the establishment, the super wealthy etc to maintain the corrupt status quo will ever be allowed to win any election. Democracy is an illusion... a very sophisticated illusion in The West in which the slow drip drip of propaganda, establishment of scapegoats in the public's minds (a "them" for "us" to hate) and provision of enough "bread and circuses" keeps the electorate fooled into believing they have the gov they want when all they have is the gov they deserve.
 
Rodrat said:
If marching to demonstrate against the treatment of women breaches the Covid rules then the Police are right to appose it and enforce the lockdown. However I would certainly be against Pritti vacant and her party curtailing the ability to protest peacefully.
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The Police should be treading very carefully in this particular situation.
 
Arkless Electronics said:
If only.... Only a gov which can be trusted by the cabal of the establishment, the super wealthy etc to maintain the corrupt status quo will ever be allowed to win any election. Democracy is an illusion... a very sophisticated illusion in The West in which the slow drip drip of propaganda, establishment of scapegoats in the public's minds (a "them" for "us" to hate) and provision of enough "bread and circuses" keeps the electorate fooled into believing they have the gov they want when all they have is the gov they deserve.
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I agree with your sentiment but it is different from having no vote, summary execution, 'disappearances', etc, etc...
 
they can ban what they want, so what, if you are really concerned you just join in, if you get nicked so what, big deal no
 
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