USB Cable Poll: Redux

[whatsnext]

We don't sell Supra USB cables.

Maybe you've got a really good DAC, a really bad system, really pointy or totally cloth ears - I've no way of knowing. Your verdict on that cable in your system is incontestable. You're dead right.

But the pro-USB figures are rising . . .

You are right what made me think you did sell them. I remember now it was an affordable alternative to the wire world stuff you do sell that another local vendor sells. (he must be wrong and you right). I choose Supra for the most affordable example of the topology you have so much faith in - signal / power separation.

You must be much heartened by the rise in interest in USB cables that may keep you fed for a few months. I wonder if it will reach MDAC proportions, the product everyone has to have because it is so good but once they have it ......

Come on buy a USB cable off Item Audio you have to give it a try.

BTW Beware you are drifting to the ad hominem habit. I'll insult your products maybe your still faulted web site but no personal remarks about you.

 

[sq225917]

Your stance is not only illogical, it's flat contradictory: your views and purchases are based on whether you can hear a positive difference - so not about the 'weight of evidence' at all.

Blind tests have shown subjects unable to differentiate between amplifiers - you don't believe amplifiers differ, either?

You're actually not that different from most of us: you're a pragmatic subjectivist. You're just a bit louder than average.

Yes, of course my views are based on whether I can hear a difference, but then i only demo gear blind, or purchase for a different feature set where blind/sighted it's not an issue.

When i can discern no difference then i look to the weight of 'evidence', not conjecture or anecdote, to identify if a genuine difference does exist. But even then this only serves to make me acknowledge that a difference is a truth, it holds no sway with whether I will buy an item or not.

Take my amp for example, i wanted one with xlr and rca inputs and with defeatable attenuation. I found one with specs that indicated it was 'blameless' and I purchased it. I don't consider that 'most' amps sound the same but I do consider that those beyond a certain technical spec do.

 

[ItemAudio]

You are right what made me think you did sell them. I remember now it was an affordable alternative to the wire world stuff you do sell that another local vendor sells. (he must be wrong and you right). I choose Supra for the most affordable example of the topology you have so much faith in - signal / power separation.

You must be much heartened by the rise in interest in USB cables that may keep you fed for a few months. I wonder if it will reach MDAC proportions, the product everyone has to have because it is so good but once they have it ......

Come on buy a USB cable off Item Audio you have to give it a try.

BTW Beware you are drifting to the ad hominem habit. I'll insult your products maybe your still faulted web site but no personal remarks about you.

First, we do sell the cheapest separated data/power USB cables currently available. If you wanted to save your pennies, you need not have splashed out as much as £30 on the Supra. For that money, I'd have given you a linear power supply and a properly separated USB cable.

Second, because we advise people to audition USB cables before coughing up for them, buyer remorse is never an issue. And that loses us about a third of all potential cable sales straight away. But lets me sleep at night.

Third, when you insult my company, my sales methods, the products we sell, and my personal ethics - that is ad hom. However, I've made no personal attack on you, and will not be drawn into doing so. I dignified you with the allowance that what you heard in your system is all the 'truth' that matters. I did call Simon a 'pragmatic subjectivist like all of us' - which in no known universe is an insult. Given the abuse I take, I think calling him 'louder than average' is well within TOS, and the realms of polite conversation.

 

[ItemAudio]

Yes, of course my views are based on whether I can hear a difference, but then i only demo gear blind, or purchase for a different feature set where blind/sighted it's not an issue.

When i can discern no difference then i look to the weight of 'evidence', not conjecture or anecdote, to identify if a genuine difference does exist. But even then this only serves to make me acknowledge that a difference is a truth, it holds no sway with whether I will buy an item or not.

Take my amp for example, i wanted one with xlr and rca inputs and with defeatable attenuation. I found one with specs that indicated it was 'blameless' and I purchased it. I don't consider that 'most' amps sound the same but I do consider that those beyond a certain technical spec do.

Putting aside the issue of how you listen and what you like - for which there is no adjudication - you must admit it's difficult to make generalisations stick with regard to DACs and systems . . .

You well know that DACs vary significantly with regard to their USB implementation, and that very sensitive systems can be peculiarly revealing of all cables connected to them. You know USB cables connect the ground planes of two devices and carry parasitic noise in close proximity to data lines. You know metal/metal interfaces induce jitter. You know there are 1001 variables that could impact on digital transfer and processing in the time domain. The problem isn't lack of evidence one way or the other: the problem is that there's too much evidence to come to a sweeping conclusion and make it stick in every case.

That's why I think we see this variation of opinion: in some systems, the USB cable really does matter. In others, it may not. I also think it's unwise to write off so many people as gullible and wrong on the basis of limited evidence: that just seems . . . fundamentalist.

 

[ItemAudio]

USB auditioner ratio just hit a perfect 50:50.

 

[maxflinn]

Putting aside the issue of how you listen and what you like - for which there is no adjudication - you must admit it's difficult to make generalisations stick with regard to DACs and systems . . .

You well know that DACs vary significantly with regard to their USB implementation, and that very sensitive systems can be peculiarly revealing of all cables connected to them. You know USB cables connect the ground planes of two devices and carry parasitic noise in close proximity to data lines. You know metal/metal interfaces induce jitter. You know there are 1001 variables that could impact on digital transfer and processing in the time domain. The problem isn't lack of evidence one way or the other: the problem is that there's too much evidence to come to a sweeping conclusion and make it stick in every case.

That's why I think we see this variation of opinion: in some systems, the USB cable really does matter. In others, it may not. I also think it's unwise to write off so many people as gullible and wrong on the basis of limited evidence: that just seems . . . fundamentalist.

There's no evidence that any of these scaremongering 'issues' end up corrupting what we hear coming out of a pair of speakers.

But don't let that stop the attempted brainwashing

 

[avole]

So here's the first one.

Scene opens showing an elegant party filled with beautiful women elegantly dressed all crowded round a male figure with back to camera. He says something and suddenly everyone draws back, leaving him an isolated figure. Camera zooms in as he turns round. It is George Clooney with an expression of extreme puzzlement on his face.

Clooney: What happened? All I said was that USB cables make no difference.

Camera pulls back. Fade in USB cables

Voice over: would you believe a fading Hollywood legend? Item Audio cables. Telling it like it really is.

Send me a pm and we can discuss terms. Will post the second ad in the campaign tomorrow.

 

[maxflinn]

USB auditioner ratio just hit a perfect 50:50.

Have a look at my poll and tell me what the two most popular answers are

 

[maxflinn]

So here's the first one.

Scene opens showing an elegant party filled with beautiful women elegantly dressed all crowded round a male figure with back to camera. He says something and suddenly everyone draws back, leaving him an isolated figure. Camera zooms in as he turns round. It is George Clooney with an expression of extreme puzzlement on his face.

Clooney: What happened? All I said was that USB cables make no difference.

Camera pulls back. Fade in USB cables

Voice over: would you believe a fading Hollywood legend? Item Audio cables. Telling it like it really is.

Send me a pm and we can discuss terms. Will post the second ad in the campaign tomorrow.

Not bad

 

[ItemAudio]

Have a look at my poll and tell me what the two most popular answers are

The second most popular is:
“I would demo even though there is no proof that there may be audible differences between them.”

The first is: “I can't be bothered and am tired and it's all nonsense”. Always a crowd-pleaser. Good poll. I voted: “I am evil, cunning and hell bent on getting rich at idiots' expense” or something. Surprised that wasn't more popular.

 

[formbypc]

Also worth trying is the Russ Andrews ploy, whereby you get taken to the ASA for making an outrageous claim, produce an unreadable reponse, then feature in every forum for years afterwards whenever the word "cable" appears in a thread. Brilliant free advertising.

How about their 'ploy' of letting the customer try their cables in their own home, on 60-day approval?

However, since we're on the topic of the ASA, has the identity of the ASA's 'expert' whom they consulted when ruling against RA, ever been established?

 

[formbypc]

A perfectly sensible position. Well said.

Does that mean you've adopted it as your position?

 

[ItemAudio]

How about their 'ploy' of letting the customer try their cables in their own home, on 60-day approval?

That is effective. I was advised by one dealer that their return rate on such a ploy was about 5%: once someone has paid for something, had it in their home for a month, forgotten about the bill - and faced with the prospect of uninstalling, packing and returning it - they're likely to keep it, however ropy it is.

Which is why - crucially - we don't do that. No tricks.

In most cases I make clear that I want back whatever we've sent out, because it's a demonstrator we've run in, and which is useful to us. And which is often wanted by someone else shortly.

Further distinguishing the loan arrangement from a 'money back' ploy is that we don't ask for any money until the customer is happy with their choice. Even more dissimilar, we're usually sending out more than one item to try: making it crystal clear this is an evaluative loan, not a purchase.

We only make sales on about 60% of loans, but those sales are with very happy customers who are insured against buyer remorse. Lousy way to run a business; great way to buy stuff.

 

[Igloo Audio]

How about their 'ploy' of letting the customer try their cables in their own home, on 60-day approval?

However, since we're on the topic of the ASA, has the identity of the ASA's 'expert' whom they consulted when ruling against RA, ever been established?

Actually, ha-ha, I agree with Item.

I'm never going to defend RA but, the ASA are a bunch of hypocrites. They argue about cable descriptions and claims, while their members promote vitamins and anti-ageing creams to their hearts content.

Peter

 

[sq225917]

Item I disagree with everything in your last post except the bit about USB implementations being variable.

Here's what I think the 50/50 actually shows us. That from an evolutionary genetics point of view, when presented with an opportunity in which no actual difference between two sounds exists, and when requested to provide an answer regarding if the two sounds are the same or different, that 50% are hard wired to choose 'difference' and 50% are hard wired to choose ' no difference'. Its no more or less than that. It is genetically beneficial to have an even distribution of doubters and believers, because it helped to save the lives of the ' there's no bear in the cave' people when there was a bear hiding in the cave and when there was no bear in the cave half of them had a good enough nights sleep to hunt well the next day covering the worriers who worried all night about the bear that wasn't there.

Statistically speaking if there was any difference the numbers would favor the USB believers much more highly. Read up on the Pepsi challenge and what happened when they tested with just Pepsi, they got a near perfect 50/50- why. Because where no differernce exist probability takes over....

 

[merlin]

I've auditioned three or four USB's and they sounded totally identical even sighted.

A dealer friend who was convinced there was a serious difference was unable to tell any apart when unsighted.

This myth really should be nipped in the bud.

 

[andrewd]

I think the 50:50 result so far seems about right, given that the effects of USB cables are dependant on many system variables.

 

[whatsnext]

I've auditioned three or four USB's and they sounded totally identical even sighted.

A dealer friend who was convinced there was a serious difference was unable to tell any apart when unsighted.

This myth really should be nipped in the bud.

There is too much to loose by those who produce/sell these dream weavers. I wonder if those involved in the production/sale of super USB cables believe their own patter. If so they are in a mess.

I have tried a £15, a £40 jobbie do I waste £400 to see if I really am fooling myself into ignoring this amazing improvement/difference that can be had by buying something other than £15 worth?

Item slags my ears, my computer everything to open the door of uncertainty that he can pop a cable through.

 

[Igloo Audio]

There is too much to loose by those who produce/sell these dream weavers. I wonder if those involved in the production/sale of super USB cables believe their own patter. If so they are in a mess.

I have tried a £15, a £40 jobbie do I waste £400 to see if I really am fooling myself into ignoring this amazing improvement/difference that can be had by buying something other than £15 worth?

Item slags my ears, my computer everything to open the door of uncertainty that he can pop a cable through.

You would like a visit to ATC.

Get into a conversation with Bob Polley and ask any source related or cable question

Peter

 

[merlin]

I've visited ATC a few times and listened to an old Meridian CD player though some very basic XLR Maplins cable.

That's what Bob has been using for demos of their best loudspeakers.