Upgrading Yamaha NS-1000Ms

[James]

It's been a while since I built a crossover, let alone design one from scratch. The last Ergo (E-X) was born nearly 10 years ago, and my favourite E-IXs have been around for over a dozen years. I'm enjoying the little 2-way mini-monitor very much and I'm extremely pleased how coherent and BIG (for their size) they sound. For the last few months, the NS-1000Ms have sat forlorn in the corner of the room. While they are absolutely amazing loudspeakers, considering how old their design is, they are not nearly as coherent as the E-IX. I know it's much more difficult to design a coherent 3-way than a 2-way.

This is where Troels Gravesen comes in. I've been reading about his work to get the NS-1000M crossover to hit its target transfer functions for a while. The E-IX's performance inspired me to pull my finger out and so I ordered a Level 2 kit from Jantzen Audio.

There are quite a few components ...

I'll have to start with cutting boards, which means dusting off my saw-table and router. I know it's not quite the same as coming up with my own bespoke design, but this gets me back into the DIY saddle.

This will be a slow project, but I'll update this thread with substantive progress as I make it. Feel free to place bets whether the upgraded NS-1000M will usurp the E-IXs as my favourite loudspeaker after the change.

James

 

[Mike Hanson]

With all the speakers you've built, I'm surprised that you prefer the Ergo IX. I'll admit that it does a wonderful job, and is currently in my best system in my office. (Actually, I'm currently testing the little Copperhead Dayton full range kit that I finished on the weekend, but I'll be switching back soon.)

BTW, I'm finally building the PFM Special this year. Given your comments about the Ergo IX, I'm curious to see how the two compare. I'm starting with the passive crossover, but I've also got a MiniDSP 4x10 that I'll eventually try as an active crossover.

 

[paulski]

The Ergo IXs are remarkable and I still have mine. If they were all I had I’d be happy. But, they’re not a patch on the IIIRs although I’ll qualify that statement - my IIIRs never really reached anywhere near their potential until I changed to a Modulus 686 (Tom Christiansen - https://neurochrome.com/products/modulus-686) power amp and then they really came alive!

It’ll be interesting to hear how the NS1000s shape up post upgrade.

 

[Mike Hanson]

The power amp certainly does play a large part in a speaker's performance, and my Avondale NCC300 monos are pushing my speakers quite wonderfully now.

 

[James]

The Ergo IXs are remarkable and I still have mine. If they were all I had I’d be happy. But, they’re not a patch on the IIIRs although I’ll qualify that statement - my IIIRs never really reached anywhere near their potential until I changed to a Modulus 686 (Tom Christiansen - https://neurochrome.com/products/modulus-686) power amp and then they really came alive!

My E-IXs have the free-space XO, and so they have around 3dB of baffle-step compensation. As a result, they do sound quite weighty and almost on par with the LF reach of the NS-1000Ms. The E-IIIR obviously go a bit deeper than either, but the bigger Ergos aren't as coherent as the baby Ergo. I have to keep picking up my jaw off the floor on most days I listen via the E-IXs.

That being said, before I acquired the Yamahas, I had been driving the E-IIIRs with a 30W class-A amp, which is adequate power wise - but not for the E-IXs. They needed the 125W Densen mono-blocks to sound their best. Before I reinstate the upgraded Yamahas, I'll have to give the E-IIIRs another run with Danish muscle.

 

[chiily]

Goody, some sawdust

 

[James]

Goody, some sawdust

I won't get excited about a couple of MDF or ply boards for the XOs. I'm still undecided about retaining the rear panel and keeping the original XO intact, or making up a pair of new rear panels.

But it is a slippery slope, so let's see how I fight the urge.

 

[Mike Hanson]

my IIIRs never really reached anywhere near their potential until I changed to a Modulus 686 (Tom Christiansen - https://neurochrome.com/products/modulus-686) power amp and then they really came alive!

That's never come up on my radar before, and he's a fellow Canuck. Not only that, he's based in Calgary, which is where my buddy lives, for whom I recently built the stereo NCC300 amp.

I've sent a message to Tom, to see if he's interested in a visit when I see my friend in March. I've got a spare Dissipante 4U/300 case, and I was considering building a First Watt F6 amp, but I think I may do a Neurochrome 686 instead.

 

[misterdog]

I think I may do a Neurochrome 686 instead.

Like.

 

[chiily]

That's never come up on my radar before, and he's a fellow Canuck. Not only that, he's based in Calgary, which is where my buddy lives, for whom I recently built the stereo NCC300 amp.

I've sent a message to Tom, to see if he's interested in a visit when I see my friend in March. I've got a spare Dissipante 4U/300 case, and I was considering building a First Watt F6 amp, but I think I may do a Neurochrome 686 instead.

Bloody hell Mike, I used to visit Calgary on business six times a year pre-COVID, small world.

 

[paulski]

That's never come up on my radar before, and he's a fellow Canuck. Not only that, he's based in Calgary, which is where my buddy lives, for whom I recently built the stereo NCC300 amp.

I've sent a message to Tom, to see if he's interested in a visit when I see my friend in March. I've got a spare Dissipante 4U/300 case, and I was considering building a First Watt F6 amp, but I think I may do a Neurochrome 686 instead.

The 686 is the finest power amp I’ve ever had by a margin. It adds nothing to the sonic characteristics but is not at all ‘clynical’ either. Also it has vast reserves of power. I’d recommend it without reservation. I honestly can’t imagine needing to change it. The only downside is the size of the case!

 

[paulski]

My E-IXs have the free-space XO, and so they have around 3dB of baffle-step compensation. As a result, they do sound quite weighty and almost on par with the LF reach of the NS-1000Ms. The E-IIIR obviously go a bit deeper than either, but the bigger Ergos aren't as coherent as the baby Ergo. I have to keep picking up my jaw off the floor on most days I listen via the E-IXs.

That being said, before I acquired the Yamahas, I had been driving the E-IIIRs with a 30W class-A amp, which is adequate power wise - but not for the E-IXs. They needed the 125W Densen mono-blocks to sound their best. Before I reinstate the upgraded Yamahas, I'll have to give the E-IIIRs another run with Danish muscle.

I’m honestly surprised that you find the Ergo IXs more coherent than the IIIRs, I find the IIIRs better in every way by some margin. I’ll put the IXs back in my system soon and let them run in again and see how they fare.

 

[Mike Hanson]

The 686 is the finest power amp I’ve ever had by a margin. It adds nothing to the sonic characteristics but is not at all ‘clynical’ either. Also it has vast reserves of power. I’d recommend it without reservation. I honestly can’t imagine needing to change it. The only downside is the size of the case!

If he agrees to a visit in March, I'm going to propose that we bring my friend's stereo NCC300 along, to do a head-to-head. Or perhaps he would lend us one for a couple of days so we could test it in my friend's system. I'm quite curious to see how they compare, as can't recall hearing an amp better than the NCC300.

James, sorry for hijacking your thread to talk about amps. I suppose, though, that it's your fault for bringing it up.

 

[337alant]

James,
Sound's like a great idea, looking forward to seeing how this project develops, always hankered after a pair of NS1000Ms and I actually bought a pair once only to find the currier turned them into a piece of junk in transit
Alan

 

[James]

I’m honestly surprised that you find the Ergo IXs more coherent than the IIIRs, I find the IIIRs better in every way by some margin. I’ll put the IXs back in my system soon and let them run in again and see how they fare.

There are three possibilities:

(1) There is an audible difference (for coherency) in the free-space variant compared to the boundary version, which is what I think you have. In my defence, I designed the E-IXs originally for free-space, and adapted the XO for boundary location. I must confess I haven't properly heard the wall mount version.
(2) You are not juicing the E-IXs with enough power, or I'm not juicing the E-IIIRs properly (which I'll rule out when I reinstate them)
(3) Coherence means different things to us.

 

[Mike Hanson]

I've got the boundary version myself, and they're pretty tight into the corners of my office, so that's probably the appropriate choice. I also find them to be very coherent. FWIW, I drove them initially with QUDOS Voyagers, and now the NCC300 monos, so there's never been any shortage of power.

 

[James]

Progress has been a bit slow. But the crossovers have now been built. The last weekend was spent fashioning the new back plates and pulling out the drivers and existing wiring.

Should be ready to wire up the new crossovers next weekend. The new crossover takes up a bit more real estate, but will fit on the rear panel with four screws.

 

[Bill Colledge]

I built and installed one of the Jantzen crossover kits last year. Quite a satisfying project.
Do you intend using the Yamaha l pad tone controls. I didn’t, but that was mainly due to my lack of knowledge of how to incorporate them.
Bill

 

[337alant]

Lovely job James
Alan

 

[Mike Hanson]

Progress has been a bit slow. But the crossovers have now been built. The last weekend was spent fashioning the new back plates and pulling out the drivers and existing wiring.

Should be ready to wire up the new crossovers next weekend. The new crossover takes up a bit more real estate, but will fit on the rear panel with four screws.

I can only hope the crossovers for my PFM Specials look that tidy.