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Upgrade advice - do I need a pre-amp

So, given your responses, I think I’d also be looking at what digital front ends can offer from companies other than Naim. If that digital front end has a vol control, then why not unplug the 52, grab the appropriate cable and see if you prefer it?
 
jellyheadjeff said:
My current system is a naim nds/555ps dr/nac52/supercap/nap135/neat ultimatum mfs7’s.

I’m starting to think about what my next upgrade should be. Whatever I do I will keep the neat’s. I’ve decided I will never need anything more than a single digital source which has started me thinking on whether I need a Pre-amp or not on my next upgrade. I’ve been a long time Naim user but not wedded to the brand so assume everything apart from the speakers are up for change.

So interested on peoples recommendations where I could go next and whether I do need a pre-amp or not. Not sure about budget but for the purposes of this discussion assume a max of £10k plus any monies from any trade ins or sales (ideally less of course).

I’m UK based so would want equipment that I could demo in the UK. I’d welcome any suggestions.
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Why don't you try for yourself - a cheap test would be to buy a WiiM Pro from Amazon - see how it sounds. I heard a WiiM Pro in action at the WAM show last Weekend hooked up to a Denafrips Pontus II - the complete package was very nice sounding indeed!

If you want to keep your current streamer I believe that the WiiM Pro allows the signal to pass-through and therefore you can still attenuate the sound via the WiiM.

Anyway - it's a cheap test you can try.
 
beammeup said:
Why don't you try for yourself - a cheap test would be to buy a WiiM Pro from Amazon - see how it sounds. I heard a WiiM Pro in action at the WAM show last Weekend hooked up to a Denafrips Pontus II - the complete package was very nice sounding indeed!

If you want to keep your current streamer I believe that the WiiM Pro allows the signal to pass-through and therefore you can still attenuate the sound via the WiiM.

Anyway - it's a cheap test you can try.
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I’m really not convinced it’s worth it as a Wiim owner. For starters, the power supply is hugely compromised. I’d be thinking about Innous or similar level kit.
 
I find a pre-amp always improves the sound rather than going direct. It is the hub of your system and does more than just allow volume control, it provides impedance matching at both input and output.

If you are looking to change amplification I have seen this on AOS forum which is an excellent amp:

FS: Sumo Polaris-310 Serviced, ReCapped etc.

decided that i need to move this on to make space for something new! Lovely Sumo Polaris, not many good 240v UK ones about. This was working fine, but as preventative maintenance it's been serviced and all the electrolytic caps replaced. Nichicon Muse for all the ones on the boards. And...
theartofsound.net
Mating this with a valve line-stage will sound noticably different to Naim and should IMO sound better.
 
What I'd do in your shoes is speak to Bob at Neat and ask for a quote to get you wonderful speakers made active. Then I'd ask him about an active crossover an speak to Exposure who will probably be able to sort something out for you.
I personally would look for a DR Supercap too but the active thing is the best bet IMHO.
 
This was my point also!
jellyheadjeff said:
Not come across them before - I’ll have read up. What do you use as a transport?
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Ah OK well then I'm happy to help introduce you. They are a Polish company, very successful and gaining a worldwide reputation for building among the best DACs available. They are well known for using valves in their output stage and having a very organic, dare I say 'analogue' sound to them. Their breakthrough product, and also their original flagship DAC, was the Golden Gate, using DHT triode output (which is what I have).

Their current designs have moved away from DHT (because it's getting really hard to buy any DHT triode, perhaps with the exception of the 300B), so their current flagship, the Horizon and their newly launched (last week), Poseidon, both use pentodes, as does the Atlantic TRP, which is more budget friendly. The Amber and Baltic still uses DHT triodes. All models are designed to allow tube rolling, with the pentode designs offering far greater scope for this. Being able to fine tune the character is a big part of the appeal.

My Golden Gate has been used extensivey with 300Bs, 45s and 242s in the output stage, with the 242 being easily my favourite. 300B is lovely but it needs to be a good tube to be really enjoyable.

They're distribute by Greg Dryglla at G-Point Audio - http://gpoint-audio.com/contact/ - I know Greg really well; he's incredibly knowledgable and passionate.

One word about going active. If you like what you currently have and want to exagerate it, then active will do that. But keep in mind that going active will also exagerate any weaknesses in your system; if you ever found yourself feeling a little fatigued or like your ears might be able to bleed, then the active route is going to really amplify that problem.

I've heard a reasonably high end active Naim system (NDS, 555PS, 252/300, Ovators) and it was dreadful; so harsh and tiring I couldn't bear to spend time with it. Interestingly, the owner reached the same conclusion and traded everyhting in and started from scratch. He how has a system that balances all the best attributes of a Naim approach without any of the fatiguing or tiring elements.
 
Woodface said:
You are probably right it’s just that speakers generally make the biggest difference so taking them out of the equation is potentially limiting.

I’ve not really given a thought about servicing but my dealer will help. BTW, I had to service my Nap250 3 times in less than 20 years.

Best of luck & remember that you don’t have to upgrade.
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Yeah that is the other option. Just get what I’ve got serviced and buy a load of music and 4k films instead :)
 
RobFTM said:
What I'd do in your shoes is speak to Bob at Neat and ask for a quote to get you wonderful speakers made active. Then I'd ask him about an active crossover an speak to Exposure who will probably be able to sort something out for you.
I personally would look for a DR Supercap too but the active thing is the best bet IMHO.
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I had no idea that you could make them active. Trouble is active does get expensive…. Out of curiousity are my mf7’s be three channel still with the downward facing isobaric driver?
 
tiggers said:
You're going to have to go some to make a signifiant upgrade to the sound of that system. I wouldn't be too hasty to change it all or ditch the pre as the 52/135s is a lovely combination... the Naim sweet spot IMO. If it was me I'd go active with more 135s, a SNAXO and Supercap and some SL2s, but that means moving your Neats on and you have clearly stated you do not want to do that so ignore me.

All I would say is be careful about a whole system change (bar the speakers) as if you like the sound of what you have now a lot of the kit people are recommending has a very different sound signature to your Naims... even upgrading to more modern Naim components would see a signifiant change and not necessarily one you will like. I went from a 52/active 135s and SL2s to Schitt Freya with ATC SCM40As and they are very very good, but I still have fond memories of the synergy of that Naim system. I only changed because of the box count thing.
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You can always dip back into naim the new range & keep the speakers? Doubt I will go back mind.
 
Woodface said:
Unfortunately the servicing won’t be cheap but you have a top end system whichever way you look at it.
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I have already obtained servicing costs and still haven’t discounted that option. Yes not pennies but beer money compared to the price of new kit it seems. There’s some crazy prices out there from a number of vendors. Bit of a shock when you haven’t bought anything in a while. I was going to say you can buy a car for the price of that component but then you look a new car prices. That’s equally eye opening. The world has gone mad.
 
jellyheadjeff said:
I have already obtained servicing costs and still haven’t discounted that option. Yes not pennies but beer money compared to the price of new kit it seems. There’s some crazy prices out there from a number of vendors. Bit of a shock when you haven’t bought anything in a while. I was going to say you can buy a car for the price of that component but then you look a new car prices. That’s equally eye opening. The world has gone mad.
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Yea, I had upper end naim for years & had a stable system for around 15 years. I couldn’t believe that a 252 was circa £8k, my then system would be circa £35k now at rrp.

I now think pre-amps don’t make that big a difference or rather the cost isn’t a signifier of sound quality.

Price of speakers is now utterly nuts.
 
There have been many threads like this .depends on the dac .some dacs straight into power amps sound clinical and sometimes a pre amp can be so much more musical and liquid and engaging

Its not straight forward , however once went to a friend using a decent dac into his power amps and it was okish .then we put the mfa passive in and the soundstage widened and some windows started shaking .he bought one the next week
 
With what you’d get for the Naim front end stuff, and up to £10k on top, you could go a fair way up the Accuphase integrated amp range, and cd player, and I think you’d find it hard to improve on at the price.
 
Woodface said:
You can always dip back into naim the new range & keep the speakers? Doubt I will go back mind.
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Nah, I'm delighted with my current set up, but equally I loved my Naim gear and just not joining in with the usual ex-Naim owner rhetoric of slagging it and the company off just because I no longer have their gear in my system. Not aimed at you btw :D
 
Would I be right to say that every system has a preamp (at least for the volume and level output), and if so, this thread might be more about whether it is best to be built into the DAC, vs. being in a separate box?
I'm sure it is completely feasible to get great sound without a separate preamp, but I also know that it needs a higher quality volume control on a DAC than I have on mine. For now, the only Naim box in my main system is the preamp, simply because it sounded better in than out (in my system, with a lesser budget than the OP's). No doubt, a DAC on a better budget could reverse this.
 
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Maybe this thread should be about whether a source component or DAC can raise the output gain to line level and attenuate the volume to the same level of quality as a dedicated pre-amp? There are many examples of digital sources with built in quality pre-amps but I doubt many source components or DACs that were designed to be plugged into a pre-amp in the first instance would have a built in pre-amp output of similar quality. Maybe some feel that less is more and cutting out the pre-amp simplifies The signal path but I think that this ignores the basic job of a pre-amp And the amount of R&D that goes into designing a good one.
 
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