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Upgrade advice - do I need a pre-amp

J

jellyheadjeff

pfm Member
My current system is a naim nds/555ps dr/nac52/supercap/nap135/neat ultimatum mfs7’s.

I’m starting to think about what my next upgrade should be. Whatever I do I will keep the neat’s. I’ve decided I will never need anything more than a single digital source which has started me thinking on whether I need a Pre-amp or not on my next upgrade. I’ve been a long time Naim user but not wedded to the brand so assume everything apart from the speakers are up for change.

So interested on peoples recommendations where I could go next and whether I do need a pre-amp or not. Not sure about budget but for the purposes of this discussion assume a max of £10k plus any monies from any trade ins or sales (ideally less of course).

I’m UK based so would want equipment that I could demo in the UK. I’d welcome any suggestions.
 
Hello
I would suggest to try one of the several super integrated amps available to replace the whole amp chain.
 
No you don't need a pre-amp. I have been working for years without one for both records and digital. I'm not quite sure of your total budget But I use a Weiss DAC202 that plugs straight into my power amps. Its a superb DAC but its now only available s/h as it has been superseded by the DAC 501. However the price for that is a stupid £8K plus. I would look out for a s/h DAC202. The unit has its own volume control and is available as firewire or USB that latter being more expensive but easily within your budget.

DV
 
Tonnes of options potentially.

Go Vitus, Devialet or similar with an all in one streamer/DAC/AMP.

Go active speakers and a streamer with vol control

Buy a streamer with vol control.

Get a DAC with vol control.

Maybe visit a couple of shops that have a good choice of other kit such as Igloo Audio.
 
Darth Vader said:
No you don't need a pre-amp. I have been working for years without one for both records and digital. I'm not quite sure of your total budget But I use a Weiss DAC202 that plugs straight into my power amps. Its a superb DAC but its now only available s/h as it has been superseded by the DAC 501. However the price for that is a stupid £8K plus. I would look out for a s/h DAC202. The unit has its own volume control and is available as firewire or USB that latter being more expensive but easily within your budget.

DV
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With you on that suggestion!
 
You could do a lot worse that looking at a Benmark DAC3 which is also a pre amp, I think someone on here could d it an improvement on a 252.

I recently went with an ATC CDA2 into ATC40As.

I think you are making a mistake with taking the speakers out of the equation.

BTW I had a full naim system (similar to yours).
 
Woodface said:
You could do a lot worse that looking at a Benmark DAC3 which is also a pre amp, I think someone on here could d it an improvement on a 252.

I recently went with an ATC CDA2 into ATC40As.

I think you are making a mistake with taking the speakers out of the equation.

BTW I had a full naim system (similar to yours).
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Pl
 
To my mind the thing in that system that's absolutely screaming out to be changed is the Supercap. The 317 based supplies really hold back the older equipment when you get to the best digital sources. A teddy pardo Supercap, a Naim SCDR or the dragon newt upgrade to your existing SC would all yield a worthwhile increase in transparency.
 
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Apologies finger tapping user problem. I get what you are saying re: speaker choice as I can fully believe active speakers along the lines such as atc would be very effective ( not heard them myself) .My only thoughts are:

1. Might be wrong but not convinced my speakers are the limiting item in my current setup. I like them.
2. If you are planning to keep the ATC’s long term the time will come that the amps need servicing. Hate to the of the shipping costs on that service.
2. Also the extra red velvet cloud finish on my neat’s is sublime in my particular room in terms of suitability. Very SWMBO friendly. They are not going anywhere. Treat it as a constraint ( there could be worse ones :)).

Thanks for your suggestions folks
 
colasblue said:
To my mind the thing in that system that's absolutely screaming out to be changed is the Supercap. The 317 based supplies really hold back the older equipment when you get to the best digital sources. A teddy pardo Supercap, a Naim SCDR or the dragon newt grade to your existing SC would all yield a worthwhile increase in transparency.
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+1
 
jellyheadjeff said:
My current system is a naim nds/555ps dr/nac52/supercap/nap135/neat ultimatum mfs7’s.

I’m starting to think about what my next upgrade should be. Whatever I do I will keep the neat’s. I’ve decided I will never need anything more than a single digital source which has started me thinking on whether I need a Pre-amp or not on my next upgrade. I’ve been a long time Naim user but not wedded to the brand so assume everything apart from the speakers are up for change.

So interested on peoples recommendations where I could go next and whether I do need a pre-amp or not. Not sure about budget but for the purposes of this discussion assume a max of £10k plus any monies from any trade ins or sales (ideally less of course).

I’m UK based so would want equipment that I could demo in the UK. I’d welcome any suggestions.
Click to expand...
You're going to have to go some to make a signifiant upgrade to the sound of that system. I wouldn't be too hasty to change it all or ditch the pre as the 52/135s is a lovely combination... the Naim sweet spot IMO. If it was me I'd go active with more 135s, a SNAXO and Supercap and some SL2s, but that means moving your Neats on and you have clearly stated you do not want to do that so ignore me.

All I would say is be careful about a whole system change (bar the speakers) as if you like the sound of what you have now a lot of the kit people are recommending has a very different sound signature to your Naims... even upgrading to more modern Naim components would see a signifiant change and not necessarily one you will like. I went from a 52/active 135s and SL2s to Schitt Freya with ATC SCM40As and they are very very good, but I still have fond memories of the synergy of that Naim system. I only changed because of the box count thing.
 
tiggers said:
You're going to have to go some to make a signifiant upgrade to the sound of that system. I wouldn't be too hasty to change it all or ditch the pre as the 52/135s is a lovely combination... the Naim sweet spot IMO. If it was me I'd go active with more 135s, a SNAXO and Supercap and some SL2s, but that means moving your Neats on and you have clearly stated you do not want to do that so ignore me.

All I would say is be careful about a whole system change (bar the speakers) as if you like the sound of what you have now a lot of the kit people are recommending has a very different sound signature to your Naims... even upgrading to more modern Naim components would see a signifiant change and not necessarily one you will like. I went from a 52/active 135s and SL2s to Schitt Freya with ATC SCM40As and they are very very good, but I still have fond memories of the synergy of that Naim system. I only changed because of the box count thing.
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hmm - food for thought certainly. The box count consideration is irrelevant to me - I have a large dedicated listening room. I get what you are saying re: active systems - I’ve heard them sound sublime but unfortunately not usually with Naim speakers at the end of the amps. Over the years I’ve listed to various combos both active and passive of naim speakers including IBL, SBL, DBL, Sl2 & s-400 and there was something about the sound signature that never did it for me.

My problem is I haven’t heard the newer sound footprints to make a comparison and not sure where to start apart from demoing the latest naim kit. Part of me though says is the decision I made to go down the naim route many years ago still valid or are there better sweeties in the jar these days? I’d certainly have to travel to demo some of the kit mentioned in this thread. I’ve never heard them but was assuming members might have suggested makes like chord, bryston etc. I only mention them because I read good things about them in various forums.

Maybe I start with ditching the supercap and see where I go from there. Folks - if I did that any views on which would be the better option re: the teddy/supercap dr/dragon newt?
 
My own experience with the preamp question is that if all you need the preamp to do is attenuate the volume, then you can very often find that capability replicated in a DAC and so the 'need' for a preamp is diminished.

However, that is rarely all you 'want' a preamp to do; the other thing you want it to do is sound really good and the variable output of most DACs are themselves, quite variable. Whether your system can do without a preamp is really something you're going to have to try for yourself. Some power amps prefer the additional drive they get from a preamp, like my own SETs which greatly benefit from a preamp and sound a whole order of magnitude better this way. But even high-powered SS designs will more often than not still sound much better fronted by a dedicated preamp.

A friend of mine has the range topping Lampizator Horizon DAC, which is quite special and a DAC I've also had in my listening room. In his system, it drives an Audionet Stern/Heisenberg amp set up (if you're not familiar with this, the power amps are SS 400 watts into 8 ohms and double their output down to 1 ohm; they are up there in the amp stratosphere with D'Agostini and Dartzeel) and in both his system and mine, a preamp sounded significantly better between the Horizon and the power amps, though in mine, the difference was much more obvious.

Lampizator have a new DAC out called the Poseidon which has a preamp stage they claim is as good as any in the world but I’ve yet to hear/test it, but it could be as good as they say and it could genuinely negate the desire for a preamp.

The only way for you to know is to try. In the context of your system, a Lampizator would be an interesting thing to listen to as it would give you a quite different experience to that which you’re used to. I grew up on Naim and am familiar with their style and in the end found it just too brutal and fatiguing but I loved the sense of timing and leading edge dynamics their equipment is famed for. Adding in a Lampizator DAC might help take some of the bleeding ear edge away and give you a more rounded and organic musical presentation. Something to think about.
 
jellyheadjeff said:
My current system is a naim nds/555ps dr/nac52/supercap/nap135/neat ultimatum mfs7’s.

I’m starting to think about what my next upgrade should be. Whatever I do I will keep the neat’s. I’ve decided I will never need anything more than a single digital source which has started me thinking on whether I need a Pre-amp or not on my next upgrade. I’ve been a long time Naim user but not wedded to the brand so assume everything apart from the speakers are up for change.

So interested on peoples recommendations where I could go next and whether I do need a pre-amp or not. Not sure about budget but for the purposes of this discussion assume a max of £10k plus any monies from any trade ins or sales (ideally less of course).

I’m UK based so would want equipment that I could demo in the UK. I’d welcome any suggestions.
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You are not the only one who has had these thoughts. A year ago I was thinking of downsizing my system (similar to yours) to a Linn Accurate system hub and Exaktbox-i. This would have given me a dedicated active streaming system. However I started asking myself why? The excuses seemed to be reduce box count, release some equity, maybe newer stuff sounds better, I’m not listening to vinyl as much. The reality is that it was really new-car-itus. You know that feeling you get when you start to think about getting a new car and then get taken over by the desire for no explainable reason. In the end I boosted my vinyl side by adding a Supercap to my Prefix and ordering a new shelf for my rack. I’m now about 50/50 listening to vinyl and streaming and my system sounds better than ever. Demons have now been banished. Maybe there are better neater systems out there these days but I don’t care. I’d be wary of doing anything rash and give it a good dose of sitting down and thinking about what you really want. ;)

ps: a pre-amp does more than just source select and volume. Increasing the input gain transparently is the really important and tricky bit.
 
The best way to achieve "equity release" is actually to get rid of the massively overpriced Naim digital front end.

My digital spend has reduced from bout £7k in 2000 for a TAG DVD32R/Chord DAC 64 through a change to the benchmark series of DACs (had all three) subsequently driven by mediacentre PC's instead of the transport to the £900 Topping D90SE. The Topping is definitely better than what went before though has less functionality than the BM. I tried the BM in preamp mode but the Naim preamp still survives in the system.

Jumping off the "CD player" bandwagon early was certainly one of my better decisions.

I'm pretty sure that if I change my system (and like a lot of people I'm thinking the time might be right) it will actually be for a Genelec fully digital satellites and sub system and the vinyl collection and associated equipment will likely as not be gone by then.
 
jellyheadjeff said:
Apologies finger tapping user problem. I get what you are saying re: speaker choice as I can fully believe active speakers along the lines such as atc would be very effective ( not heard them myself) .My only thoughts are:

1. Might be wrong but not convinced my speakers are the limiting item in my current setup. I like them.
2. If you are planning to keep the ATC’s long term the time will come that the amps need servicing. Hate to the of the shipping costs on that service.
2. Also the extra red velvet cloud finish on my neat’s is sublime in my particular room in terms of suitability. Very SWMBO friendly. They are not going anywhere. Treat it as a constraint ( there could be worse ones :)).

Thanks for your suggestions folks
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You are probably right it’s just that speakers generally make the biggest difference so taking them out of the equation is potentially limiting.

I’ve not really given a thought about servicing but my dealer will help. BTW, I had to service my Nap250 3 times in less than 20 years.

Best of luck & remember that you don’t have to upgrade.
 
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