DonQuixote99
pfm Member
unmid is echoing the Daily Mail, so still a Western source I fear.... But I do not doubt the story.
Ukraine II
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DonQuixote99
pfm Member
So you know the true truth, and what all media do and do not cover? Are you God?
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
I am pretty sure Sean doesn't shill for Right Wing media or the Kremlin and I assume the latter question is rhetorical.
DimitryZ
pfm Member
I think the key metric is whether right-wing elements in a society has enough electoral support to be a prominent part of the national or regional government.
By that metric, Ukraine is certainly not different and maybe better than many European countries such as Italy and France, where right wing is an empowered part of national politics.
Nick_G
pfm Member
Well, it's not really rhetorical. There is a distinct possibility IMO that Putin's interference influenced the result of the EU referendum vote, but Sean thinks we did it all by ourselves. Brexit is a win for Putin: it disrupts the EU, isolates the UK, and inflames political divisions between us. Why wouldn't Putin try to rig the game in his favour? We all know what he's capable of.
Tony L
Administrator
If there is any even slight glimmer of hope in this grotesque situation it may just be that the Overton Window is being reset slightly. It is encouraging to see RT, Guido Fawkes, Andrew Neil, Arron Banks, George Galloway, The Telegraph and countless others flushed out into the spotlight.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
My understanding is that nationalism in Ukrainian politics has always been more complicated than just the Nazi thug minority that every country has because of the complexity of the recent history, a popular sentiment to reinforce a national identity (with good reason!) and debates about Ukranian vs Russian, EU vs Russia, etc. etc. It's obviously imperfect, but a better analog from a UK perspective would be something like the Brexit movement rather than the National Front.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/bandera-mythologies-and-their-traps-for-ukraine/
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
Well I don't want to speak for Sean but I think the argument is that Putin's attempts to influence Brexit (and the Trump election victory) were not very effective but I don't think many argue that he didn't try or that it was politically advantageous for him.
Nick_G
pfm Member
Maybe, but both results were very close (particularly Trump). It wouldn't have taken much to push things in Putin's favour in both examples.
Tony L
Administrator
I’m more with Adam Curtis on this that the result didn’t matter, the win was the destabilising aspect. The splintering, the factionalising and ramping-up of mistrust in western democracy. One could argue the disputed US election and Jan 6th coup attempt was the real take home. The whole concept of democracy in the US is now hanging by a thread, as it is in the UK. I’m in no doubt we’ve all been pwnd, but I don’t think the goal was ever partisan e.g. simply supporting Trump or Farage/Johnson vs Obama or Corbyn. That wasn’t the game. Brexit was useful as it was so obviously divisive and economically damaging, plus it had real reach to harm the EU too. An easy win for a disruptor, as was say hacking the DNC.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
Yes, except that very close in a national vote is a *massive* effect. So if it did have an impact you should be able to see this in the data. Also remember that an awful lot of this is dogged by post hoc effects -- it looks like it was a lot more impactful because Trump and Brexit actually won when neither were expected and by how it has influenced the political and media conversations afterwards.
And from a "Psy Ops" perspective you can argue this is just as good. I.e. it doesn't matter if it worked just that lots of people think it did and so start to distrust their countrymen as much as their crazy uncle at Christmas.
EDIT: Which is the point Tony is making as well.
kensalriser
pfm Member
I remain bemused at the recent spiteful ad-hom attacks on Cadwalladr by two PFM posters who appear to identify as left wing and presumably aren't mates of Arron Banks. Most odd.
Tony L
Administrator
Corbyn supporters have been known to tie themselves in logical knots defending his ambivalence towards the alt-right Brexit project! CC saw it for what it was.
anubisgrau
pfm Member
how do you mean "as well" when you fought with the nazis (you call them germans) against russians. this implies the nazis were not your occupants but partners.
meanwhile in the russian news:
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
meanwhile in the russian news:
More on Marina Ovsyannikova here:
https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1503453014643949576
DimitryZ
pfm Member
Direct comparison could be made to Finland and Hungary, which both fielded troops in WW2 that fought with or along the Germans and against Soviets.
But we don't seem to remember them in that context today.
DimitryZ
pfm Member
The level of devastation of Mariupol is, frankly astounding.
Striking video from above shows devastation in Ukraine city where 2,500 are dead
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/14/mariupol-drone-destruction-ukraine-orig.cnn
Striking video from above shows devastation in Ukraine city where 2,500 are dead
https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2022/03/14/mariupol-drone-destruction-ukraine-orig.cnn
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
The scenes of apartment blocks on fire and the maternity hospital the survivors from the first one shelled by the Russians fled to being itself shelled, are utterly nightmarish. Interviews with the obstetrician in the second hospital confirm the woman seen stretchered out from the first hospital with the fractured pelvis and dislocated hip died after 30min of attempted resuscitation and lost the baby. That’s a woman Russian media reported as being an actor.
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