johnandvirginia
Active Member
Any advice from experienced owners of tube amps for a complete beginner who would like to get the very best from his David Berning ZH230 + TE Vibe/Pulse + Focal Utopia Diablos.
Tube rolling for beginners
- Thread starter johnandvirginia
- Start date
S-Man
StrivingON
Contact the manufacturers and stick with their recommendations. They will know which valves give the best sound and reliability versus cost.
There are no particular rules when it comes to swapping valves, it depends on the operating points, the tolerances of the valves themselves and the sound balance in the particular amp. Old valves add another X layers of complication, unless them are known and tested good.
There are no particular rules when it comes to swapping valves, it depends on the operating points, the tolerances of the valves themselves and the sound balance in the particular amp. Old valves add another X layers of complication, unless them are known and tested good.
oceanobsession
pfm Member
I have to say I disagree with the above post most manufacturers of valve amps
fit valves which are readily available which means Russian or Chinese but there is better to be had in nos valves, first check what voltages the manufacturer is running the valves at only most Russian and Chinese valves can be operated at higher voltages than nos valves so check this first . phil.
fit valves which are readily available which means Russian or Chinese but there is better to be had in nos valves, first check what voltages the manufacturer is running the valves at only most Russian and Chinese valves can be operated at higher voltages than nos valves so check this first . phil.
S-Man
StrivingON
If the OP had a Chinese amp or Prima Luna etc, then yes, but TE and Berning are rather specialist and ought to know the most suitable valves.
Must say that I have been disappointed by the sound of old valves in my own amp. BUT, there are certainly lots of people around who swear by old stuff.
manicatel
pfm Member
Bernings have a reputation for being a great amp, so it's worth getting it right. Most people will likely say vintage NOS valves are better than the more everyday variety. I use a Graaf valve amp & have been very happy with Genalec Golden Lion kt88's in it. Approx £120ish for a quad matched set.
Sounds quality, longevity & reliability have to be thought about, some brands may be better at reliability than others, for instance.
i don't think you get massive differences in SQ between brands, imaging & bass quality seems to me to be the areas where the differences are most obvious.
Watford Valves & HotRox are good starting points, but be aware that Valves are a massive topic, lots of info sources & opinions,which can be a minefield as much as any other element of the HiFi world.
But when you get it right, a valve amp such as your Berning will give massive pleasure.
Matt.
Sounds quality, longevity & reliability have to be thought about, some brands may be better at reliability than others, for instance.
i don't think you get massive differences in SQ between brands, imaging & bass quality seems to me to be the areas where the differences are most obvious.
Watford Valves & HotRox are good starting points, but be aware that Valves are a massive topic, lots of info sources & opinions,which can be a minefield as much as any other element of the HiFi world.
But when you get it right, a valve amp such as your Berning will give massive pleasure.
Matt.
I would be extremely careful if you are going to change or replace any valve/tubes in your Berning amplifier. The Berning is a very complicated circuit and if it blows up or fails it will need to go back to the manufacturer and the cost of that will be considerable.
Just because the valve/tube plugs in and out doesn't mean that changing or swapping it out is what you should do. Check carefully through the manual and see what it says regarding replacing/changing tubes. There might be some set up adjustments that need doing if you change any of the valves/tubes. Also a lot of valves/tubes being sold today as NOS are not really NOS and you could end up plugging one is that tests worse than the one you removed, or even worse it could be faulty and you damage your amp. I have found over the last 10 years that lots of the older vintage valves/tubes are now becoming unreliable due to age/loss of vacuum, noise etc. Anyway it is something to be aware of.
Just because the valve/tube plugs in and out doesn't mean that changing or swapping it out is what you should do. Check carefully through the manual and see what it says regarding replacing/changing tubes. There might be some set up adjustments that need doing if you change any of the valves/tubes. Also a lot of valves/tubes being sold today as NOS are not really NOS and you could end up plugging one is that tests worse than the one you removed, or even worse it could be faulty and you damage your amp. I have found over the last 10 years that lots of the older vintage valves/tubes are now becoming unreliable due to age/loss of vacuum, noise etc. Anyway it is something to be aware of.
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
David Berning can usually be reached by email, or a bit of googling will usually find his comments regarding valves used in his designs. I have a ZH270 and have owned it since 2006 with a pair of ART Emotion Sigs, it certainly cured me of box swapping. Valves are not stressed in his designs - none have failed yet. After trying a few combinations early on, I settled on the stock RCA outputs with a combination of NOS Telefunken, Mullard and Siemens for the driver and input valves.
tomek
pfm Member
I did a lot of tube rolling. My general advice is - some new tubes like selected JJ with gold pins or EI can be VERY good, new chinese and russian types have a very varying quality.
IMHO absolutely the best is NOS Telefunken followed by Philips/Mullard/RCA/Tesla/Siemens.
New machines are not so good as old ones and most important - in tube production one has to use some very rare minerals/metals and the purity of those materials available today is not so good, as 60-50 years ago.
Some east european factories (Tesla, EI) have used old production lines from Telefunken and Philips, and this is a reason, why some NOS Tesla and EI tubes can be very, very good.
IMHO absolutely the best is NOS Telefunken followed by Philips/Mullard/RCA/Tesla/Siemens.
New machines are not so good as old ones and most important - in tube production one has to use some very rare minerals/metals and the purity of those materials available today is not so good, as 60-50 years ago.
Some east european factories (Tesla, EI) have used old production lines from Telefunken and Philips, and this is a reason, why some NOS Tesla and EI tubes can be very, very good.
palasr
>>>...<<<
You have 12AX7s (ECC83) and 12AU7s (ECC82) that can be rolled in that particular amp. Berning generally supplies his amps with decent tubes (valves) to begin with, but you can get a different 'flavor' if you go for vintage Mullard, Telefunken, Siemens, Amperex, Valvo, etc. The differences can range from marginal to substantial.
To my knowledge, only GE, Sylvania and RCA ever made the 33JV6 output tube used in that amp and most likely GE manufactured them all (RCA and Sylvania likely relabeled a GE product). From my experience with my ZH270 and EA2100, the output tubes have very little effect on the overall sound of the amp, despite rolling; the magic is in the input and driver tubes.
Berning runs his tubes extremely conservatively, and you'll likely get 10-20 years from your output tubes before they need to be changed. Not many other tube amplifiers can make such a claim.
To my knowledge, only GE, Sylvania and RCA ever made the 33JV6 output tube used in that amp and most likely GE manufactured them all (RCA and Sylvania likely relabeled a GE product). From my experience with my ZH270 and EA2100, the output tubes have very little effect on the overall sound of the amp, despite rolling; the magic is in the input and driver tubes.
Berning runs his tubes extremely conservatively, and you'll likely get 10-20 years from your output tubes before they need to be changed. Not many other tube amplifiers can make such a claim.
johnandvirginia
Active Member
Thank you so much for all these helpful replies - much to think about! John.