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TT source for Kan/Naim set up - VPI or LP12

rstloup

rstloup

pfm Member
Hello,

This is my first post here so I hope I'm not breaking any rules -- searched some threads and still in need of some advice. I recently set up a small system in my apartment with Kan IIs and a Naim 42/110 combo. I'm on a waitlist to get the CB amps recapped locally, but am hoping to build out the system till then. I'm in search of a turntable to match. I'm currently running a SL 1200 MK II / Ortofon 2M Blue which is fine, but want to upgrade. My local Linn/Naim dealer has an 1988 LP12 Valhalla/Ittok for a reasonable price and he would do a standard rebuild and setup for the price -- new grommets and springs, tuning the top plate/ suspension, cleaning the belt, motor speed adjustment and arm alignment. When I spoke to him about the table though he kept pushing me towards a new LP12 as the better purchase.

I listened to a VPI Scout Prime about a year ago at another audio store. I remember it sounding really impressive. However, I keep reading about the synergy between the Kans + CB + LP12. If you were in my position, would you go for the LP12 or the VPI? I need to go back and audition both again, but as things are a bit complicated now to audition, seeking advice here first
 
I think you have the making of a classic system there. Beware the itch to further upgrade the naims. On the turntable front you really ought to compare your SL 1200 against the LP12 and the VPI,if not at home then at the respective dealers.
 
Depends on budget and future plans.

Not to mention personal preference.

All that said a good local dealer that can help you get the best out of your system is worth a lot.

Ask to compare the second hand ittok LP12 with a new Basik LP12. This might give you some clues.
 
The ‘88 lp12 if unchanged, is pre-cirkus. Some think this produces a pleasing sound. As DE says do the old/new lp12 comparison to see what you think. That would be my first move.
 
I’d ask if you could borrow it with a suitable deposit. Same vintage of LP12 as mine, also pre-Cirkus. You could then add a separate PSU later which would give you a useful step up in performance.
 
I use Valhalla/Ittok with black liner pre-Cirkus bearing, vintage Naim amps (sometimes 42/110) and Kans - although using a Nait with Rega ELAs at present. I just use a K9 or VM95C but VM95E is also very good in this system. I don't listen to much classical or heavy rock though.

Kan 1s with B110 woofer sound best to me with a pre-Cirkus LP12. Late Kan 1s and Kan 2s with B110B are more forgiving but will still benefit from a warmer and fuller presentation to sound right. CD 'can' be awful through any Kan.

Without an LP12, I'm not sure you'll really get the full benefit of vintage Naim and Kans. They major or rhythm and timing which an 80s deck will preserve very nicely and the whole sound should be very coherent.

If not done so already, then recommend getting the Valhalla serviced as well. If in UK, then I know that Class A use Linn-supplied components.
 
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Charlie_1 said:
Without an LP12, I'm not sure you'll really get the full benefit of vintage Naim and Kans. They major or rhythm and timing which an 80s deck will preserve very nicely and the whole sound should be very coherent.
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As @Charlie_1 says, this good advice, others will disagree, however with an LP12/Naim/Kans you have the classic 80's sound.
 
Period-correct LP12. Kans were designed subjectively around a LP12/chrome-bumper Naim amp and need the upper-bass lift and weight of that era of LP12 IMO. Get it all setup right in a really suitable room and they can sound superb.
 
It also depends on how you hear and how much you got used to and appreciate the speed stability of the Technics.
As that will be hard to beat.

I have an LP12 and like it, but I'm hesitant to push a newbe into what can become quite an upgrade grave.

I value speed stability more now then I did ~20 yrs ago and today I think a really nice small MC and a decent phono stage has the potential to make a far greater difference then the choice of the deck itself.

From the 2M blue there is easy potential for a real upgrade with a nice MC.
It would have to fit to the arm.

You'll hardly even get near the speed stability of your Technics with reasonable means with the LP12 & so there is the risk of a very expensive side-grade.

I'd stick with the DD & explore MC cartridges and phonostages with great vfm,
that's where I easily see the most potential.

(Heard a DIY deck based on a quartz-locked Technics like your's with the smallest Project carbon arms..those you get thrown after for like 170 bucks s/h, with a Goldring Excell MC and a really good phono stage (~1000ish)
just two days ago at a friends house.
And I think that was performing a little bit better then what I have at home here the moment.)
Good results don't always have to be expensive..and spending at lot does not always mean it get's better.

What really gave me a headache was the small Project Carbon..I'm tempted to put up some deck and see how far I can take it.
 
I don't have Kans any more but had a pair of earlyish Kans for many years and loved them.

Used with Naim 32.5/250 and LP12/Ittok followed by Roksan Xerxes (still have amps and Xerxes today). Also CD and later digital streaming inputs.

Good sound and I never felt that CD or digital sounded bad compared to records.

I sold the Kans when I realised I liked a bit more bass. Moved to SBLs :)

Tim
 
torstoi said:
I'd stick with the DD & explore MC cartridges and phonostages with great vfm,
that's where I easily see the most potential.
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I was thinking of this too. I know the CBs need a recap, but I couldn't find much except one thread about how strong the phono boards on them are. Was thinking investing in a nicer phono stage and MC cartridge would boost the SL1200 quite a bit -- and eventually anything else I add to the system too.
 
Second TonyL's comment. A period correct LP12 would be my choice. I never felt the LP12 was an upgrade grave when I had mine, just a very good deck. I had a pre-Cirkus/Valhalla/Akito/Nagaoka-Stilton TS11 for several years, changed to an Aro after 7 years when funds permitted and only changed cartridge to a Dynavector when the Nag had about 8 years hard use. Serviced it myself every 3 years or so. No hassle at all and a lovely thing into my then 72/140 system. If it floats your boat properly from the off then there should be no upgrade "itch", in my view.
 
Yes - a LP12 is only an upgrade grave if you choose that route. I bought mine in 1987 (was 18!) and it’s been largely unchanged in 30 years since I upgraded the PSU and fitted a better arm and cartridge. Various different cartridges over the years of course!
 
I’d never look at an LP12 as ‘requiring’ upgrading. I fully admit/accept I am decades out of touch now, so don’t have much if any experience or knowledge of current spec, but for a long while I felt every ‘upgrade’ made the thing sound less like an LP12, and therefore less like the thing I liked. I view it as a real classic deck in the same way a Garrard 301, Thorens TD-124 or whatever is, and I can fully enjoy it for its character (which as I say is exceptionally useful with Kans, SBLs etc).

If you asked me right now to pick an LP12 to really enjoy long term and forget about I’d likely go for a really old ‘red button’ (i.e. pre-Valhalla) one with a Grace arm, maybe an Ittok, and probably a really nice moving magnet cart (MP-500, AT150MLX etc). I’d not overdo it, I’d not want to go up into the stratosphere price wise as at that point I’d almost certainly choose another deck entirely. Basically I want an LP12 to sound like an LP12. I’d happily have one in the 149 system, I really do like them, though it would be too warm for the huge Tannoys.
 
It seems like the LP12 is the answer then. The question now is whether to recap first or save up for the LP12. The combo is sounding good to my ears -- bought from the original owner that had them stored for some time -- but a lot of discussion points towards recapping for safety..
 
rstloup said:
It seems like the LP12 is the answer then. The question now is whether to recap first or save up for the LP12. The combo is sounding good to my ears -- bought from the original owner that had them stored for some time -- but a lot of discussion points towards recapping for safety..
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It's worth noting that if you're trying to stay "true" to the ethos of the original amps, the re-capping should be done to Naim's spec. Plenty of people will use different components, bringing the amps into line with more modern equipment but I believe the tantalum caps are in the signal path and have a direct influence on the sound. Witchhat or Class A are both good recommendations and I think the engineer at Lintone was trained by Naim, too. They're only any good if you're in the UK though. I think I'd get on with the servicing as it might take you a little while to find the right LP12 anyway - be choosy!
 
Well, there's some valid points & having an LP12 myself, I have no stocks in this.
Also I did not say the LP12 is an upgrade grave, but I said it can become an upgrade grave.
A small but significant difference, and if you're honest..if you ask for advice on a forum with an LP12,
you know what's coming..

I did a bit of that, no regrets, I enjoyed it, but I know now that it was a bit of a more expensive road than it had to be, considered the plain sound quality.
The Lp12 is a truely beautiful thing to look at, though.

My upgrades were comparatively fairly modest..and I'm rather sure I wouldn't wanna go back to the old stock form now.
TD160 a technically very close related and also nice looking deck. Minus the dangerous part..

Tim also brought a very valid point, going full-range...3 way instead of trying to make the Kan's sound bigger.
If I were to do it again, I'd go 3 way far sooner now.
SBL if you will, I'd do this before the MC cart/ phonestage even.

In last instance it really depends on how you hear music, what music you listen to.
If solo piano with long held decaying grand piano is your thing & you're used to the Technics doing that,
the LP12 may not stand a chance in that.

If rich tonal colour, if not necessarily pinpoint acurate pop and rock is yours, you may live with an LP12 very happy for a long time.

It's also possible, you'll come down the very same road again in a few years time.

If any chance, I'd really try and keep the Technics to compare it to the LP12 head to head,
before you get rid of it and regret it.

Kan & 110 sounded very nice together in their own way.
Recapping the 110 will make a huge difference, so that would be my go-to first.

Whatever you do, enjoy the experience.. :)
 
Thanks everyone for the useful advice -- and for guiding me through these newbie questions.

pocketkitchen said:
It's worth noting that if you're trying to stay "true" to the ethos of the original amps, the re-capping should be done to Naim's spec. Plenty of people will use different components, bringing the amps into line with more modern equipment but I believe the tantalum caps are in the signal path and have a direct influence on the sound. Witchhat or Class A are both good recommendations and I think the engineer at Lintone was trained by Naim, too. They're only any good if you're in the UK though. I think I'd get on with the servicing as it might take you a little while to find the right LP12 anyway - be choosy!
Click to expand...

I've been worried about this with the recapping. I'm based in the US and can't really afford to send it to AV Options -- which seems like the Class A service here. I found someone locally who has been discussed in the forum for his upgrade boards + phono boards (Neil J). He walked me through his recap process with the components as I've had my doubts. His pricing is very reasonable -- it makes me wonder what exactly is AV Options doing different that it is like 4x-5x the price.

As far as the Technics go, I will definitely keep it. I have a lot of emotional attachment to the deck -- was a gift from a good friend. I mostly listen to Salsa records, jazz, new wave / post -punk rock + noise, female vocals. Classical i usually feed digitally or use my Stax headphone setup.
 
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