Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
I'd love to see Bernie or Joe in a debate with Trump, and tell him "When I'm sworn in you will be hauled away from the inauguration ceremony in handcuffs."
Trump Part 16
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I'd love to see Bernie or Joe in a debate with Trump, and tell him "When I'm sworn in you will be hauled away from the inauguration ceremony in handcuffs."
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
that is a daily mail style answer with the word "right" substituted for "left". i'm going to chalk it up to mere vindictiveness against max, rather than outright ignorance.
ffs, it's amy goodman presenting the debate on democracy now.
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
johnston was a lot more persuasive back in the prior debate. in terms of finding things bizarre, to quote matthew, here we have a person largely defending the position of establishment media (which hyped the accusations), the establishment party (which launched all of this) and, above all, the establishment prosecutor (with resources even the most powerful prosecutor can only dream of) against a totally out-gunned anti-establishment voice and yet somehow suggesting the outcome was biased against the establishment.
as greenwald states quite clearly -- as do all of us on the proper left -- trump is unhinged, immoral and a danger to the USA (and world beyond). what johnston fails to address in any reciprocal fashion is the primary issue here: a reckless media narrative that focused on what had ratings appeal at the expense of balance, skepticism and any concern for actual consequences for americans, russians and all the rest of us. before even getting to the debate that happened just now, we should be be discussing why debates like it were deliberately shut down at the start of 2016. that is THE story here and it's completely independent of the investigation or the validity of its conclusions. just read one of our members explaining his refusal to watch the debate (in a post above) to get a sense of the climate that persists.
finally, i would like to applaud greenwald for explaining (albeit in crude, lawyerly terms) that we do not prove null hypotheses in a rational society, either in science lab or courtroom. the lack of the most basic scientific education in our journalists is appalling and at the heart of so much of the spin going on (with people like chuck todd): "the fact that we did not find evidence of X doesn't mean X didn't happen". if only we had a god who would transport chuck todd to guantanamo bay so he can properly live that experience.
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
Summary in two words, please
distrust empiremedia.
Tony L
Administrator
The problem for me is both you and MaxFlinn have consistently been on the wrong side of world events for as long as I can remember (Trump, Brexit, Syria, Putin, Assange, Mueller, Peterson etc etc etc, in fact with you it goes right back to Bosnia etc). You both fail to articulate arguments I find even remotely convincing, and these days resort to link-spamming lengthy RT documentaries etc onto my website. Given the “weight” I place on your views I really don’t have the hours to waste sifting through this kind of internet fringe media - I could be listening to Miles Davis FFS! If either of you had been right about anything I cared about I’d maybe put the time in, but so far I’m not buying this self-professed “intellectual left” I’m afraid!
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
Point of order it was launched by the FBI not the Democratic Party.
To be frank I find the suggestion that the real problem here is the media ludicrous. It would be like complaining that the man about to smash your head in with a hammer is wearing an awful tie.
But the point of the Mueller report is not that it found no proof of collusion but that it didn't find enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the specific crime of conspiracy had occurred. The Mueller report is literally hundreds of pages of proof of potentially criminal conduct relating to Trump and Russia. Large parts of the media story, virtually all of what Abramson reported from that Media story and significant parts of the Steele dossier are basically confirmed by the Mueller report.
This is before we even get to Part II which basically says that there was a significant and effective attempt to obstruct justice *specifically in regard to the Trump Russia investigation*. It seems highly likely that if this obstruction hadn't happened and people had not consistently lied to Mueller then he could well have mad a case for indicting Trump and associates for conspiracy.
I also note:
1) There are some 20 or so ongoing investigations and prosecutions arising from Mueller's investigations.
2) Most of the redactions come from references to ongoing investigations/prosecutions so there might well be more indictments to come.
3) We have not seen the counterintelligence part at all but we do know that the POTUS, his family and associates are compromised by foreign governments.
The standard of proof required for impeachment (preponderance of evidence) is lower than probable cause and the Mueller report is basically an inviting open goal for Congress to act. The standard is even lower for counterintelligence and it seems inconceivable to me that there are not parts of the CIA that are actively thinking about the problem of the president, family members and senior associates being open to blackmail by multiple foreign governments.
As to what should happen next:
1) Congress should start hearings on all of this stuff as it's the best way to let everyone know what Mueller found and understand its significance.
2) Such hearings are very likely to naturally lead to impeachment proceedings.
3) The democrats should let congress do its job and campaign in 2020 based on healthcare, immigration, tax reform, etc. and Trump's failings as a president rather than Russia related issues.
4) We know that having got away with it once, Trump and the Russians are very likely to try again in 2020. The fact that the Trump administration has done nothing to prevent this is deeply disturbing.
5) If Trump loses in 2020 he and many associated people are going to jail.
PS I note for reasons of cosmic balance every time Max says Neocon Tony has to say alt-right
Ciunas Audio
Trade: Ciunas Audio
Great post Matthew
Agree 100% - the ridiculous argument about the media overhyping is laughable if it wasn't so sad - perhaps there's a bigger issue to be dealt with rather than arguing about the garish colours of the fire truck trying to put out the fire
Yes the Dems need to reform themselves also, as Max & possibly Vuk, say but the US body politic has a rapidly growing cancer at its heart engulfing everything around it & this cancer needs to be excised first before attending to the other diseases & lifestyle changes that are needed for a healthy democracy.
I believe as more details are revealed from the redacted parts of the Mueller report & from public hearings & from some of the 20 odd court cases + 14 other possible court cases that it will be realised Trump is a clear & present danger. We will see how low the GOP will sink to in this scenario but low they will go
Agree 100% - the ridiculous argument about the media overhyping is laughable if it wasn't so sad - perhaps there's a bigger issue to be dealt with rather than arguing about the garish colours of the fire truck trying to put out the fire
Yes the Dems need to reform themselves also, as Max & possibly Vuk, say but the US body politic has a rapidly growing cancer at its heart engulfing everything around it & this cancer needs to be excised first before attending to the other diseases & lifestyle changes that are needed for a healthy democracy.
I believe as more details are revealed from the redacted parts of the Mueller report & from public hearings & from some of the 20 odd court cases + 14 other possible court cases that it will be realised Trump is a clear & present danger. We will see how low the GOP will sink to in this scenario but low they will go
Marky-Mark
pfm Member
I'll have to be the stick in the spokes on the media hype / investigation question. If people like Nancy Pelosi do anything right it's hire semi-competent people to jam their little fingers into the pulse of an electorate on issues. And if the queen bee is signaling a reticence to pursue impeachment it's because those finger people aren't seeing a lot of support for that vs. some other issue(s) rather than some 3D chess thing she's worked out where she doesn't do something now but does it later or not because ... who the hell knows anymore. Someone find me an aggregator!
And I'd say part of that is fatigue from the endless hype from sites like Huffingtonpost and Raw Story and the countless others that serve up sensationalism by way of pugilistic headlines with aggregated story copy like white bread in a diner and call themselves news. Not everyone in the voter pool is pouring over Seth and his ilk daily for blow-by-blow commentary; they're glancing at headlines on popular sites, or worse, they're getting it wherever their bias is confirmed, which pretty much takes us back to the endless hype thing.
And so you have very informed people (the Seth followers), badly informed people (the hype followers) and unformed people (a combination of those who've caught on to the bullshit or just don't care about any of it). Where this leaves the finger people I've no clue. I guess they have their work cut out for them, which probably explains why Pelosi likes to punt.
And I'd say part of that is fatigue from the endless hype from sites like Huffingtonpost and Raw Story and the countless others that serve up sensationalism by way of pugilistic headlines with aggregated story copy like white bread in a diner and call themselves news. Not everyone in the voter pool is pouring over Seth and his ilk daily for blow-by-blow commentary; they're glancing at headlines on popular sites, or worse, they're getting it wherever their bias is confirmed, which pretty much takes us back to the endless hype thing.
And so you have very informed people (the Seth followers), badly informed people (the hype followers) and unformed people (a combination of those who've caught on to the bullshit or just don't care about any of it). Where this leaves the finger people I've no clue. I guess they have their work cut out for them, which probably explains why Pelosi likes to punt.
Ciunas Audio
Trade: Ciunas Audio
Just listen to the first 10 mins of this video - Hedges & Maté both laugh over this - to paraphrase "Trump was cosying up to the Russians to get his Trump tower built - he never expected to win the Presidency"
Yes, I've said it before all this was just Trump's usual shady business dealings which would have just been another shady deal if he lost the election but when he won, all this takes on a different perspective - there's now a president who promised anything to get the deal, now in a position of power which is useful to the many people he did deals with or made promises to. He perhaps was a dupe of the Russians (& other nations) who were more resourceful & determined to get him elected than he thought possible?
But even if his intent was "I will never be elected so what I promise now is meaningless" - how is this not conspiring/colluding with foreign powers?
Mueller's investigation, as he stated, focused on a very narrow aspect of this (admittedly the focus that was only suspected at the time although Seth was revealing the bigger picture then) & the bigger picture will emerge in time
Ciunas Audio
Trade: Ciunas Audio
How I read it is that Pelosi & the Dems want more evidence to be revealed before they feel the time is right to make a move
SteveS1
I heard that, pardon?
That’s right. In previous times there would have been more than enough to remove Trump as the obviously conflicted, corrupt individual he has always been. Hell, just a POTUS backing a foreign government v his own security services would have been enough. Sadly these are different times and rather like the US boxers defending titles at home, they will have to knock him out to get a draw.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
I think she is right to let it play out and not go off half-cocked as it could easily go wrong and give Trump a way to win in 2020. There is no shortage of things to campaign on against Trump and in the meantime just let all the Special Counsel stuff play out in congress committees. I suspect the point at which it becomes a good idea in campaign terms to start talking about impeachment is the same point at which it becomes impossible for all but the mental wing of senate republicans to carry on protecting him.
I also suspect the Dem candidates will start impeachment talk in reverse order of their chances of winning the nomination as it's sort of the last role of the dice to excite the base (even if it means losing in OH, PA, etc.). And that one of the biggest dangers is the Dems destroy themselves with another awful nomination process.
My other concern would be how much damage Trump might do in his remaining time. Most specifically, given that the wider issues involve not just Russia but Saudi Arabia and Israel who collectively would like little more than conflict with Iran.
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
matthew.
that is a terrible misrepresentation. i am not comparing the media hype to trump's behaviour. those are 2 distinct things (not divorced from one another, obviously, but easy to distinguish for purposes of discourse). i never said that one was the real problem. they are 2 real problems. the criticisms being leveled by me and greenwald and hedges are about the media reporting and it was horrible. there isn't any controversy about trump being horrible.
my argument was not about mueller, it was about people like chuck todd saying stupid, anti-empirical nonsense. again, we are not discussing the same thing. maybe that's what i should be pointing out as the main issue.
vuk
\o/ choose anarchy
anyone reading your simplistic and combative, gossip-like commentary over the years will be absorbing the above in a way you probably didn't intend. all of those things/territories/people are not neatly-packaged, single-issue world events. you are also lying about my positions (i'll let max speak for himself). the funniest thing is that, if we map out all the political stances of jordan peterson, he has at least 80% overlap with your centrist views, at best 10% with mine. what you don't like is that lots of right-wing people adore him -- yet that's mainly because he hates people/leftists like me, just the way you do. you really should think about that.
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DonQuixote99
pfm Member
Your quoted paragraph concerns me greatly when combined with the observation, often made, that Trump should be or will be doomed when he leaves office and looses the Presidential powers and immunities. The obvious imperative for him becomes 'President for Life.' So if we lose a chance to force him out we may not get another.
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